South Osetia under attack

[FrodeMk3]

Ok, now if you read this:

by Sylvie Lanteaume
2 hours, 40 minutes ago
 


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Washington has little room for maneuver in the Caucasus conflict amid perceptions that it helped fuel the crisis by over-inflating Georgia's hopes of US support for its young democracy, analysts say.

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"This is probably a conflict where the United States would not be accepted by both sides as a mediator," said analyst Steven Pifer, a former US ambassador in Kiev.

"The Georgians would welcome American participation. I suspect the Russians would probably not accept us because in Moscow, we are seen as too close to Georgia," added the analyst from the Brookings Institute.

US President George W. Bush Monday condemned the Russian military offensive against Georgia, triggered after Tbilisi sent troops into the pro-Moscow rebel region of South Ossetia seeking to regain control from the separatists.

"I said this violence is unacceptable," Bush told US broadcaster NBC. "I expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn bombing outside of South Ossetia."

But Bush is acutely aware that Washington needs Moscow's support on several key outstanding international dossiers including the crisis over Iran's suspect nuclear program and moves to denuclearize North Korea.

In a plaintive reminder to the United States of its support for his 2003 Rose Revolution, Georgia's staunchly pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili sought to remind his ally of how far Tbilisi has come in the past few years.

"No country of the former Soviet Union has made more progress toward consolidating democracy, eradicating corruption and building an independent foreign policy than Georgia," he wrote Monday in the Wall Street Journal.

"This conflict is therefore about our common trans-Atlantic values of liberty and democracy," wrote the Georgian leader.

The most charismatic of the Rose Revolution leaders who ousted veteran leader and former Soviet foreign minister Eduard Shevardnadze, the US-educated Saakashvili swept to the presidency in early 2004 on a wave of popular support.

His efforts to implement sweeping free-market reforms won high praise from the West, including Bush, who hailed Georgia as "a beacon of democracy" during a 2005 visit to Tbilisi.

The United States is now seeking to win backing for a strongly worded UN Security Council resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.

The resolution would also demand a return to the status quo before Georgia sent forces into its breakaway South Ossetia enclave.

But with Moscow holding a power of veto in the Security Council there is little chance that it will pass a resolution strongly criticizing its own actions, and discussions have been deadlocked for days.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has also been noticeably absent on the diplomatic scene, having failed to interrupt her holidays to fly to Tbilisi in support of the Georgian government.

Instead senior State Department official, Matthew Bryza, who oversees the Caucasus region was sent, two days later than planned, to join a joint EU-US mediation effort to win a ceasefire.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, who is leading the mediation mission for the EU, said Monday the United States was "in a sense part of the conflict," between Russia and Georgia.

"You talk about the Americans, of course they are in a sense part of the conflict, that is why we must emphasise the presence and the strength of the European Union," Kouchner told French radio.

But State Department deputy spokesman Robert Wood sought Monday to dismiss the notion that the US was relatively powerless in face of the escalating conflict.

"We and the Europeans have leverage ... The Russians know how seriously we take the situation," he said.

"The US relations with Russia is of course a complicated one, but certainly Russia understands where we are on this conflict, where the European Union is on this conflict and we expect and hope that Russia will heed the call of the International community to stop the bombings, to agree to an immediate ceasefire and to have discussions with Georgia."

It states' in there that one of the things' that Washington is trying to do diplomatically, is to manuever the Russians' so as to still have their cooperation on other things, like Iran and N. Korea. But, if they act like this, why should we suppose that they would help us on those subjects' in any event?

[Tango]

Whats going to be REALLY interesting is to see if more European countries want to sign up for the misslie defense system after all this mess.

The Cold War is cranking back up.

[Mr No Name]

This lack of action is why REAGAN told Europe not to build that pipeline because they would be slaves to the russian dogs... I wish we would move in force to aid Georgia, a very pro-western country in the region.

[FrodeMk3]

This lack of action is why REAGAN told Europe not to build that pipeline because they would be slaves to the russian dogs... I wish we would move in force to aid Georgia, a very pro-western country in the region.

I wonder if we can-pulling those 2,000 Georgian troops' out of their positions' on the Iranian border is causing some problems.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_georgia

And here's something you guys' might wanna take a look at, as to the speed of the russian advance:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811/pl_afp/georgiarussiaunrestusmilitary

BTW, where the hell's Boroda at???

[Hangtime]

It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.

"A new Iron Curtain is descending around the periphery of Russia. Any chance of a new non-Russian pipeline out of Central Asia and into Europe is pretty much dead," says Chris Ruppel, an energy analyst at Execution, a Greenwich (Conn.) brokerage. "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."

According to the experts; Europe's energy supplier is Russia. Ukraine has already had it's chain yanked... Putin has demonstrated he will cut off their fuel supplies... jut like he did in 2006.

Germany gets HALF it's energy from Russia. ALL of eastern europe, the former warsaw pact nations; are supplied in their entirety by Russia.

There ain't a snowballs chance in hell that Europe will defy them.

There ain't a snowball's chance in hell that the US can stop them.

All Hail Russia... the new Masters of Europe.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm

http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html

[FrodeMk3]

It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.

"A new Iron Curtain is descending around the periphery of Russia. Any chance of a new non-Russian pipeline out of Central Asia and into Europe is pretty much dead," says Chris Ruppel, an energy analyst at Execution, a Greenwich (Conn.) brokerage. "Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."

According to the experts; Europe's energy supplier is Russia. Ukraine has already had it's chain yanked... Putin has demonstrated he will cut off their fuel supplies... jut like he did in 2006.

Germany gets HALF it's energy from Russia. ALL of eastern europe, the former warsaw pact nations; are supplied in their entirety by Russia.

There ain't a snowballs chance in hell that Europe will defy them.

There ain't a snowball's chance in hell that the US can stop them.

All Hail Russia... the new Masters of Europe.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/aug2008/db20080811_310322.htm

http://www.stormingmedia.us/76/7675/A767574.html

...I see your point, Hangtime. Everything that we've seen over the last few day's might be leading up to this. I was reading some about it here:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon

The question is, will this affect elections' here in the U.S., when the prices' go up again...?

[Dnil]

and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.

dominate the air and its game over.

[FrodeMk3]

and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.

dominate the air and its game over.

What, has our Airforce started operations' over there? I know the Russian's, using russian equipment like Tu-22's and Su-27's have put the Georgians' on the ground, but have we contested that yet?

[Dnil]

no, saying thats why weapons like the f22 and b2 are made, to keep whats happening to georgia from happening to us.


If Georgia controlled the air over their own country there would be piles of russia equipment on the borders.

[Tango]

It's pretty much over, but for the finger pointing.

""Russia has demonstrated that its military is a force to reckon with, that it can defeat a Western-trained force, and that the West and NATO will not act to intervene."

He makes it sound as if the Russians defeated a major power. The country has only a few million people so how big is thier army?

[AKIron]

Maybe we should invade cuba in retaliation. If we did maybe some would go home and we'd get Miami back?

[Mr No Name]

Actually, I know a few Cubans who escaped the communist regime, now living in Florida, who would love to go back if they had a free country to go back to.  I hope the US will take direct military action against the Russians.  Georgia has become a strong ally for us, we should return the favor.  Unfortunately Europe is to damn weak and short-sighted to see that the guys pulling the strings in Russia are the old KGB agents.  They built the oil pipeline and are now russias slaves IF they do not get a backbone and act fast.  We have seen these turds in action before and we know they will not stop. (Those of us old enough to remember)

[Bodhi]

and now we see why the b-2 and f-22 were made.

dominate the air and its game over.

The B2 and the F22 won't do squat for us if nukes start falling on the US.  AND, that is exactly what will end up happening if we engage Russian troops. 

The Russians played this like a fiddle and a damn good fiddle at that.

[Hangtime]

...I see your point, Hangtime. Everything that we've seen over the last few day's might be leading up to this. I was reading some about it here:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon

The question is, will this affect elections' here in the U.S., when the prices' go up again...?

Frode; the russki's have europe's nuts in a vise. If the europeans 'jump bad' the russki's shut down the pipelines. There is no other supply for the majority of the nations in europe; it's economic suicide to oppose the russki's.

Here, we've got our own supplies, as well as canada, mexico, nigeria and south america. We can stop importing middle eastern oil; pass those contracts to europe; but that's just a drop in the bucket; there's no long term relief there for the euro's. Further, since the world supply is limited and the near east, pacific rim, india and china are essentially competitors for the middle eastern oil supply, the euro's will likely not have much of a lever on the middle east to keep them from raping them... any more than we do.

So we; like the russians, AND europe are at a cusp... a decision point. Russia has the 'cat-bird seat'. The russians made their move; have revealed the stakes, and they have by their actions communicated their intent: 'Make it exceedingly clear to the west that Russia controls events on the ground here in our sphere of influence, not the west, and we can and will take the steps necessary to make that immutable fact clear.'

We can either bow, retire from the region; or we can go to war. There will be no middle ground. There's just too many people that need that energy.

Cold War again, folks. Get used to it.

As to this event vis a vis our election? The american people have a choice... 'negotiate' (Obama) or 'Stand Firm' (McCain). I don't think either of these guys will actually attempt to stop the russians with anything more significant than strongly worded protests delivered by courier to the russian embassy.

Unless Bush acts with implacable resolve, I guess we'll see in november just how long it'll take the russians to subdue europe.

Me? I take the nations military to it's highest level of alert; I'd move a Carrier Group into the Black Sea yesterday; declare a no-fly zone; destroy every single armored vehicle in Ossetia, shatter every rail line and highway from Russia into Georgia and get a pipeline built from Iraq to Ukraine... all while screaming at the russians as loudly and insanely as possible: 'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; I will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."

All in; or don't play.

[USRanger]

All in; or don't play.

Hooah