The artful HO

[BaldEagl]

But you're assuming that Plane A was maneuving for seperation for the HO on merge.  Your mistake which you keep on making is you're equating a lead turn with the beginning of a HO merge, which it clearly isn't.  You are simply changing the definition to fit your own needs to try and prove your point.  No matter how you spin it, the example I gave is clearly not a HO by any stretch of the imagition.  Even if Plane B was to maneuver by going vertical on the merge, Plane A would still have a clean shot as a result of the lead turn, resulting in Plane B getting on the sides of the fuselodge.

ack-ack

I don't think that's where this started out.  I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO.  One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.

Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning.  Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.

He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.

[Zazen13]

I don't think that's where this started out.  I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO.  One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.

Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning.  Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.

He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.

Exactly!

[Zazen13]

But you're assuming that Plane A was maneuving for seperation for the HO on merge.  Your mistake which you keep on making is you're equating a lead turn with the beginning of a HO merge, which it clearly isn't.
ack-ack

It can be if the other plane is trying to do the same thing which is almost always the case. Of course if only one is trying to pull a lead turn while the other is just flying straight and level it can't really be a HO. But, only a moron or someone who didn't see you would keep flying straight and level while your busily pulling lead. So, that rarely happens. It usually ends up both try to pull lead on each other and there's some variation of a nose to nose merge therefore an opportunity to merge "hot" and HO.

[Steve]

I don't think that's where this started out.  I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO.  One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.

Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning.  Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.

He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.

yup

[SlapShot]

I don't think that's where this started out.  I think Zazen was talking about two guys who are coming at each other for the apparent mutual HO.  One attempts to break off at the last moment while the other carries through and completes the kill.

Even though at that point, the guy who carried through didn't technically HO (he hit on a forward deflection), his intent was to HO from the beginning.  Zazen was arguing, and so would I, that that still constitutes a HO based on intent.

He had the intent to HO the whole time and just because you (or whomever) broke the 180 merge giving him some other tight angle it's still a HO.

What AKAK described is also constantly considered a "HO" by the clueless masses.

What Zaz described is what I too would consider a HO, but the person who got HOed has no grounds to call someone out on 200 or PM, whining about the HO. That is the crux of the matter.

He entered entered the HO zone and "chickened" out or thought he could get cute and possibly spoil the HO and hoping that theirs worked.

If you die in this type of situation, you still have no one to blame but yourself, and either one of them deserve to die by the "HO" or "HO Deflection" shot and no whining or complaining should ensue.

[BaldEagl]

But the scenario I painted debunks the "It's not a HO if you don't both have gun solutions" and the "It takes two to HO" myths.

[dedalos]

Honestly, diving under the other guy at the merge is one of the dumbest merges you can pull, it leaves you totally exposed from nose to tail and the hits usually cause critical, if not fatal damage.


ack-ack

  For years I've been saying the same thing.  Not only you can get hit, but you just lost the merge.  people have been selling this move as a way to avoid a HO and kill the other guy by gaining an advantage.  In fact, this is one sure way to die at the merge or seconds after.  Thats why I have been asking people to go to the DA with me and see what happens when you try to avoid a HO like that.  So far, no takers lol.
When you merge with someone, if you are nose down and he is flat or nose up, better keep going lol

[humble]

There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...

[dedalos]

There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...

I try to think of what I would do, if this war real.  If I was in a real plane, I would not really care how durable it is in that situation.  I would care about not putting my head in front of the a couple of 20mm and a couple of 50 cals.  Not by choice.  I would not care if the plane survived if I did not have a head anymore lol.  So, really, why not just try for a better shot?  See what happens?

If you are out numbered, do what you have to do, but in a 1 vs 1 in similar planes, whats the point?

[humble]

Let's be clear here. Some are quibbling over the nature of the angle of the actual shot. But, what we're are really talking about is the intent to HO. Whether the would-be HOer actually hits on the dead 12 or sprays you down as you try to duck, barrel roll, jink or whatever to avoid the "pure" HO doesn't make it any less of a HO in spirit. Sure, anything other than a pure zero deflection nose to nose merge shot is not a "pure" HO. But, the guy who heaves on the stick to pull into your face or spray you down as you try to duck with his practically infinite barrage of Niki cannon rounds is no less of a HOer, regardless of the angle of deflection he scores the hits. A noble effort to avoid the Hoer resulting in giving up a higher profile, slightly off angle deflection shot doesn't disqualify the attempt as a HO. There are a lot of really good shootists in the game who love to HO and can almost as easily score hits on you when you try to evade the "pure" HO, especially if they are in a significantly more maneuverable plane, you are under control compression or in a low-E/Alt state.

I have to completely disagree with this one...

1) there is no such thing as a HO except by mutual consent in a true merge....period

2) merge tactics really start at the time of visability and any caught by suprise inside 2.0 blew it at 5.0 range

3) most Ma (and all FSO, Scenario etc) are not "same on same" or flown from equal altitude and E-state. A pilot is perfectly entitled to engage in an E, angles or "B&Z" fight as he see's fit based on the situation and matchup. This is completely seperate from dueling rules, ganging, hording and other issues of bad game play.

I love a good one on one in the MA...I dont care what your in, what I'm in or what you try and do. I'll try and use what I have to the best of its capability based on what I find. I posted this elsewhere but I'm curious what the folks here think specific to a "HO". To set the stage this is from frame 2 of rangoon. We've been chasing the buffs after the drop, I got forced down and away taking damage and then had already fought a higher E type fight with this zeke costing me a flap after he nicely avoided my rope. I'm the last A-20 and maybe the only thing that can find any maybe kill a buff or two...

So when he reverse I follow, setting up a A-20 vs A6M5 dueling stlye on the deck merge. Having gone E before and missing parts I'm looking for a quick kill and/or a chance to extend and blow thu...but if I let him stay up and dog me I'll be toast when I run into zekes in front. This is exactly the shot I wanted/expected/got...its not a HO since he never even got a shot on me IMO...it was a free pass and a clean extension if needed. It was IMO about a perfect merge for me in an A-20 vs him under the circumstances...if i'd missed I could have gone vertical and taken the high ground...

http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Rangoon/frame%202/flamingriceball.ahf


This is the longer clip with both fights on it...

[Agent360]

Well I am on Crockets side. I hate ho twits as well.

All this talk about "I just avoid the ho".........."if you got ho ed you made a mistake".......WRONG.

There are many situations where avoiding a ho is impossible. Mostly when fighing a better turning plane in a low and slow fight. Any attempt to continue the fight by turning into the target for a lead turn or a vert maneuver will result in a nose close merge. It is here where the really CHEAP ho comes in.

On the other hand if you fly with no intent on fighting but instead make BZ high speed passes and run away every time then it is very easy for one to avoid the ho and easy for the other guy as well. This situation is not what crocket was talking about.

It is also very easy to avoid a ho on the initial merge when both are very fast. This usually make it easier to reverse if the guy goes for the ho.

There are however a few situations where I will use the ho. One being on the slower turner who makes hopeless attempts to follow me into the vert with no energy and end up prop hanging in desperation as if the were going to magically get some reversal out of that. It is like they just point there nose at me in an attempt to either ho me to start with or force me off hoping I wont shoot. Im here to tell you if you are sittin all pretty hanging there after I make the vertical stall reversall you are going to get blown out of the sky. It would have happend anyway because it would have been platform shot if it werent for the desperate nose up/prop hanging move.

The other being a zeek or a hurri. I will try to avoid it if possible but when I find a zeek/hurri pulling hard turns into me over and over squeezing of rounds before the merge its not gonna be pretty when I smack them with a tater in the prop.

And the last one being the LA dweeb who always comes blazing in for a ho while I am in a nice fight with someone who is not hoing. If I get hit like this and I aint dead I absolutly return the favor if he comes back for a second ho.

[BaldEagl]

There is one thing I havent seen brought up here yet. There are actually two kinds of angles fights in basic ACM. We predominantly have the "one circle" fight here in AH and most tactics and expectations are developed on that premis which is fundementally focused on gaining the 3-9 line. Now the other type of an angles fight is called a 2 circle fight and is focused on managing the frontal aspects of the circles intersection. This was actually a very common (much more common then the 1 circle fight) reality in WW2. A great example is the earlier comments on the hurricanes etc...while no doubt some (maybe even a majority) are just looking for a HO the reality is that the hurricane is very capable of converting a one circle fight to a two circle fight. Givne its durability and hitting power its well suited toward hunting for a good FQ shot (which is not a HO). I'd say I convert about 1/3 or more of my once circle fights in an A-20 to a 2 circle fight. As a general rule I'll take the 45 degree deflection shot if I get it or reconvert to a 1 circle fight using the vertical vs allowing anything near a mutual exchange.
The real key here is that the pilot who is now in a 2 circle fight has to realize he's going to have to manage the nose to nose aspect of the fight as well as AOT...

In a two circle fight you typically have the option of accepting or denying a HO simply by managing the arc of your own circle.

Normally, I'll avoid it by relaxing my own turn while simultaneously forcing my oppoenet to pull harder for the attempted deflection.  In the end I retain E while he burns E to my advantage.

I don't blame someone for going for that shot at all because it's usually after the fight has started.  For my own part I like to aviod those and keep working for the 3/9 line.

[TonyJoey]

I'll HO in two situations: 1. Trapped alone with many other bandits in my jug, or 2. If I'm droppin down on someone and they pull up into me, but only if I know they are goin very slow, like 85 or lower IAS, making it very hard for the shot anyway(with exceptions of nikis, typhs, la's, etc). On merges I just go down and left to avoid HO...works for me.

[TonyJoey]

I'll HO in two situations: 1. Trapped alone with many other bandits in my jug, or 2. If I'm droppin down on someone and they pull up into me, but only if I know they are goin very slow, like 85 or lower IAS, making it very hard for the shot anyway(with exceptons of nikis, typhs, la's, etc). On merges I just go down and left to avoid HO...works for me.

[TonyJoey]

oops