Author Topic: Fuel n DTs  (Read 1940 times)

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 10:35:32 AM »
Historically heavy bombers were dead meat if fighters found them. In this game the bombers outrun fighters.

Historically bombers took full fuel, this mean slower cruising speeds, much slower climb rates, and lower effective altitudes. In this game they can take 25%, fly across the map at full-frickin'-throttle, climb faster and fly higher and have a max level speed faster than they ever did historically.

On top of that they have the guns of 3 different planes all singling out targets from ranges 3x historical effective gunnery ranges because their unrealistic forward speed gives the rearward-firing bullets that much more momentum on pursuing craft.


Oh, yes, this is in any way balanced gameplay... riiiiight  :rolleyes:

This is a game, but it's a game that supplies you with historical performances and specifications on the planes IN this game. The problem is bombers are heavily abused in regards to historical specs.

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 10:39:17 AM »
You guys ever notice that DT's aren't listed in the damage display. Think about it. :D
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 10:41:22 AM »
because their unrealistic forward speed gives the rearward-firing bullets that much more momentum on pursuing craft.
Krusty, you wanna splain that one?
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 11:19:49 AM »
Again... A cute idea.  But no bearing of truth, so no!
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline VansCrew1

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2377
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 11:22:48 AM »
Again... A cute idea.  But no bearing of truth, so no!

What do you mean no bearing of truth, explain it more.

Whels i agree.
Tour 79
Callsign: VansCrew


"The Ringer"

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 11:28:58 AM »
Bullet impact loses power over range. Hit something with 50cals at 100 yards and it does a lot more damage than tickling them at 800 yards. So the bullet leaves the barrel and based on that point it loses power. However if the barrel is moving forward at 300+mph, the second the bullet leaves the gun, the point of reference the fighter has is rapidly closing. The bomber may still say 1.0k range, but by the time the fighter is impacted by the bullet it has only traveled 500 yards (to make an example) and on top of that the fighter's forward motion probably adds more punch to the bullet as well.

It's hard to explain without a diagram.

Aside from that, there's the usual...

Bombers fly so fast in this game they force 90% of fighters into a dead 6 tail chase. Not only does this reduce the closure rate to that of a yugo in first gear, it lets the gunners (really 1 gunner with upwards of 18 guns all firing where he aims) have a very slow moving easy target.

On top of that the fighter, just to keep even with the bomber, has to fly at high speed head-on directly into the bullet stream

The forward speed of bombers takes a 500 yard max range (historically) and turns it into 1.5k (unrealistically) because they are running away so fast the trailing planes can't do anything else.


However, with a bomber at 180MPH (or whatever the cruise speed would happen to be) the fighters do not sit dead 6 because they actually CAN overtake and set up attack runs on bombers. Even a dead6 attack, if the bomber fires 1.0k the bullet still travels (let's say) 800 yards and is much less effective by the time it hits the target.

It's a compound problem that many aspects of would be minimized if the max speed of bombers was lowered. How exactly we lower it, I don't know. I suggested a 8x fuel burn for 4-engines before, so that bombers have to take 100% all the time and HAVE to use cruise settings or won't get far. Others (and myself) would like to see some sort of engine related problems or a more realistic limitation on bomber "full throttle" use.

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 11:31:37 AM »
What exactly would have stopped a pilot taking 25% fuel and DT's IRL?
I'm not familiar with the operation of other aircraft's drop tanks, but I've read that in the 109 the internal fuel tank was what fed the fuel to the engine, and the drop tank topped this off the entire time it was attached- thus it would be impossible for the internal tank to be under 100% when the drop tank was attached.

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 02:02:15 PM »
Bullet impact loses power over range. Hit something with 50cals at 100 yards and it does a lot more damage than tickling them at 800 yards. So the bullet leaves the barrel and based on that point it loses power. However if the barrel is moving forward at 300+mph, the second the bullet leaves the gun, the point of reference the fighter has is rapidly closing. The bomber may still say 1.0k range, but by the time the fighter is impacted by the bullet it has only traveled 500 yards (to make an example) and on top of that the fighter's forward motion probably adds more punch to the bullet as well.

It's hard to explain without a diagram.

Aside from that, there's the usual...

Bombers fly so fast in this game they force 90% of fighters into a dead 6 tail chase. Not only does this reduce the closure rate to that of a yugo in first gear, it lets the gunners (really 1 gunner with upwards of 18 guns all firing where he aims) have a very slow moving easy target.

On top of that the fighter, just to keep even with the bomber, has to fly at high speed head-on directly into the bullet stream

The forward speed of bombers takes a 500 yard max range (historically) and turns it into 1.5k (unrealistically) because they are running away so fast the trailing planes can't do anything else.


However, with a bomber at 180MPH (or whatever the cruise speed would happen to be) the fighters do not sit dead 6 because they actually CAN overtake and set up attack runs on bombers. Even a dead6 attack, if the bomber fires 1.0k the bullet still travels (let's say) 800 yards and is much less effective by the time it hits the target.

It's a compound problem that many aspects of would be minimized if the max speed of bombers was lowered. How exactly we lower it, I don't know. I suggested a 8x fuel burn for 4-engines before, so that bombers have to take 100% all the time and HAVE to use cruise settings or won't get far. Others (and myself) would like to see some sort of engine related problems or a more realistic limitation on bomber "full throttle" use.

All you had to say was increased bullet velocity relative to the target. However, For rear guns firing on a trailing fighter, I believe you're actually describing it in reverse.  In any event, it's essentially a wash. Decreased muzzle velocity relative to the fighter is balanced by the deceleration of the round and the forward velocity of the fighter. Besides, 264 f/s (180 mph) really isn't much of a delta compared to 2850 f/s muzzle velocity. I think you'll find the effect is actually quite small. 50 BMG loses that much velocity in only 100 yards. Of course, the faster the buff goes, the larger this effect you're describing becomes, with a larger resulting reduction in initial velocity relative to the target. (This kinda reminds me of the early body armor tests the NIJ did. Cops were asking if the vests were still effective if they were running towards the shooter. The researchers asked them tongue-in-cheek "How fast do you run?" )

As far as making dead 6 attacks on buffs going 300 mph, you're absolutely right. It's bogus. And forget about overtaking one and turning for a head-on attack. The only plane we have in-game which can consistently do that is the 262.
:salute
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 02:06:46 PM »
You guys ever notice that DT's aren't listed in the damage display. Think about it. :D
The point I was making here is that apparently DT's can't be damaged. I've had both internal tanks holed in the Dora, but because damage to the DT isn't modeled, I cruised home no problem. :)
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 02:19:29 PM »
All you had to say was increased bullet velocity relative to the target. However, For rear guns firing on a trailing fighter, I believe you're actually describing it in reverse.  In any event, it's essentially a wash.

I don't think it is. The distance the bullet has to travel before hitting the target is significantly shorter if the bomber is flying faster, because the target can barely keep up in a tail chase.

A bomber travelling 320MPH (yes I've clocked B24s in game doing 320 steady before, because they have no bombs and no gas to slow them down) is doing 470 feet per second.

So the second a bullet is fired rearward at a fighter, a second later its NORMAL impact speed to target is increased by 470 feet because while the fighter/bomber may stay the same relative distance they are moving forward and the bullet is moving backward. Not even counting net lag and individual clients showing up closer than they really are (etc etc) that's a range boost of over 150 yards of efectiveness. Meaning if you fired at a target 800 out it would have the impact of firing at them from under 650 yards.

I don't think I'm explaining it very well.  :confused:

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 02:27:00 PM »
I don't think it is. The distance the bullet has to travel before hitting the target is significantly shorter if the bomber is flying faster, because the target can barely keep up in a tail chase.

A bomber travelling 320MPH (yes I've clocked B24s in game doing 320 steady before, because they have no bombs and no gas to slow them down) is doing 470 feet per second.

So the second a bullet is fired rearward at a fighter, a second later its NORMAL impact speed to target is increased by 470 feet because while the fighter/bomber may stay the same relative distance they are moving forward and the bullet is moving backward. Not even counting net lag and individual clients showing up closer than they really are (etc etc) that's a range boost of over 150 yards of efectiveness. Meaning if you fired at a target 800 out it would have the impact of firing at them from under 650 yards.

I don't think I'm explaining it very well.  :confused:
I follow what you're saying. I'm just saying that I don't think the change in impact velocity is really that significant. Have to see ballistic tables to 50 BMG to say for sure. (especially against a soft target like an aluminum A/C, but that's another discussion)
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline hyster

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 227
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 02:36:08 PM »
i dont care what they need. they should be forced to use fuel loads closer to RL.
the fuel burn multiplier in arenas dont affect buffs like it should.

planes were loaded with the required amount of fuel needed to make the target with X amount of spare fuel for emergency's.
IE: if the target was 1 hours flight time away why take 2 hrs worth?
the plan would be loaded with 1 hours worth of fuel + 30 Min's for emergency like leeking fuel or damaged engine or another 1,000 reasons.

a Lancaster hitting a target in France would have less fuel loaded than a Lancaster hitting a target in germany.


had a discussion smiler to this about speed of a vehicle   vs the speed of an object moving inside of a vehicle   and this is how i explained it to him.

a train is doing 100mph
a guy walks towards the front at 10mph how fast is the guy moving relative to the ground?
answear = 110mph

a train is doing 100mph
a guy walks towards the back at 10mph how fast is the guy moving relative to the ground?
answear = 90mph

short answear to the bullet is that u either + or - the speed of the plane to the speed of the bullet depending on which way the bullet is fired.
bomber speed = 200mph
bullet speed = 800mph
fired forward bullet speed = 1000mph
fired backwards bullet speed = 600mph

now if a fighter is flying in trial doing 200mph then the impact speed is 800mph due to the forward motion of the fighter added to the speed of the bullet.

Offline Cthulhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2463
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 04:33:24 PM »
planes were loaded with the required amount of fuel needed to make the target with X amount of spare fuel for emergency's.
IE: if the target was 1 hours flight time away why take 2 hrs worth?
the plan would be loaded with 1 hours worth of fuel + 30 Min's for emergency like leeking fuel or damaged engine or another 1,000 reasons.

a Lancaster hitting a target in France would have less fuel loaded than a Lancaster hitting a target in germany.


had a discussion smiler to this about speed of a vehicle   vs the speed of an object moving inside of a vehicle   and this is how i explained it to him.

a train is doing 100mph
a guy walks towards the front at 10mph how fast is the guy moving relative to the ground?
answear = 110mph

a train is doing 100mph
a guy walks towards the back at 10mph how fast is the guy moving relative to the ground?
answear = 90mph

short answear to the bullet is that u either + or - the speed of the plane to the speed of the bullet depending on which way the bullet is fired.
bomber speed = 200mph
bullet speed = 800mph
fired forward bullet speed = 1000mph
fired backwards bullet speed = 600mph

now if a fighter is flying in trial doing 200mph then the impact speed is 800mph due to the forward motion of the fighter added to the speed of the bullet.
hyster, what you're describing is bullet velocity relative to the ground, not relative to another plane traveling at the same speed. It's necessary to take into account the fact that, relative to the two planes, the bullet decelerates at different rates depending on who's firing: the plane in the front, or the plane in the back. I believe this is what Krusty was trying to say.

Let's use a simple aerodynamic convention. Instead of the planes moving relative to the air, let's make the planes stationary, and consider the air as flowing past both. So, from that perspective, let's look at this again. Let's place our two planes 100 yds apart, and consider 4 examples:

1) Planes parked on runway: (NO Wind)

a) Rear plane fires .50 BMG at front plane. Bullet leaves muzzle @ 2850 f/s and decelerates 270 f/s to 2580 f/s at impact.

b)
Front plane fires .50 BMG at rear plane. Bullet leaves muzzle @ 2850 f/s and decelerates 270 f/s to 2580 f/s at impact.


Now, let's use Krusty's haul bellybutton B-24 as an example:

2) Both planes flying @ 470 f/s 100 yds apart. Just like planes parked on runway, but now there's the equivalent of a hurricane blowing from front plane to rear plane.

a) Rear plane fires .50 BMG at front plane. Bullet leaves muzzle @ 2850 f/s, but because it's essentially fired into a 470 f/s head wind, it initially decelerates much more rapidly, and drops to ~2280 f/s before it impacts the front plane.

b) Front plane fired .50 BMG at rear plane. Bullet leaves muzzle @ 2850 f/s, but because it essentially fired with a 470 f/s tail wind, it initially decelerates much more slowly, and may actually hit the rear plane at a speed higher than 2850 f/s.

Krusty, you buying this? :salute
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 05:36:45 PM by Cthulhu »
"Think of Tetris as a metaphor for life:  You spend all your time trying to find a place for your long thin piece, then when you finally do, everything you've built disappears"

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2008, 07:23:49 PM »
 :salute
Force a certain loadout of internal fuel before drop tanks are allowed...  Yet in real life, they were able to do what they wanted.  So truth is, we follow as close to life as possible don't we?  And the cuteness, not out of disrespect, comes from the idea of equalizing the playing field, which is what ENY should be doing in the first place, no?  And what the fuel/drop tank debate is meant to do I see it as.
What do you mean no bearing of truth, explain it more.

Whels i agree.
Should I explain it more?  Or just slower?  By this time of day I figure you're 5 or 6 bowls in!   :rock
 :salute
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline Oleg

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1000
Re: Fuel n DTs
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2008, 04:00:03 AM »
Bombers fly so fast in this game they force 90% of fighters into a dead 6 tail chase.

Any fighter (a6m2 included) outrun all heavy level bombers (lanc, b-17 and b-24) at any alt (with few exceptions).

I would like to see speed limit for drones though.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 04:02:15 AM by Oleg »
"If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain."
Maya Angelou