seafire vs. bf110

[CAP1]

How am I being dishonest?  Have I lied about something?  Please elucidate.  What I did was express some disillusionment and incredulity with what I encountered in an encounter.  I did that in both forums. 

from what slapshot quoted in the il2 boards, it would appear that you're comming here, and talking nice to us, and being friendly, and telling how much you might like this sim. then you go to another bbs, and slam this sim, telling how a 110 handles like a lala.

 the 110 is a hard(for me anyway) plane to fight in. i use it mainly for ground attack, but i have met qite a few good sticks in it. i've had my asss kicked by them while i was in zekes, and hurris....which are 2 of the best turnfighters(in my opinion) in the game.

 what you did, was to basicly make yourself an easy target that anyone with eyeballs could've shot down easily. he was probably slipping his plane in that descent to keep from overshooting you, and then when he saw you flat turn, all he had to do was point his nose, and shoot.

 you attributed your loss in that engagement to the flight model(on the other bbs), when in actuality, it was you lack of sa, and knowledge of evasive maneuvers.

 i don't mean to be insulting, but two faced people force it out of me.

[321BAR]

Yep,  It probably was.  Not to mention that both the G & C perform admirably when lightened of ords and fuel.

the 110 is one of my main ways of getting kills when a mission goes bad, i somehow manage to get over 5 in that when light and i still can get more if i want to die when they horde like vultures when im the only one left at the end of the battle

[nonaste]

Thanks Shane. 

To answer your question, I discovered AFTER I posted the question that they weren't interested in discussing the subject, mostly from the higher echelons.  They are REAL touchy about some subjects.  If you raise their ire too far they'll close the topic.  I pushed the limit, got some answers and decided it's time to move on. If SlapShot noticed I haven't made any comments lately.

 I made the decision to dig deeper into this game despite the negativity of the comments over there.  I just wanted some input.  I didn't expect complete objectivity, although a couple guys said encouraging things about AH which is basically what I wanted to hear, and not from here.  I know you guys are fans.  I am readily aware there is a strong  and powerful dedication towards everybody's favorite sim. 

[CAP1]

I call BS on that too ... "disillusionment and incredulity" along with a splash "slamming" ... along with a lie to your IL2 buddies ... here is your original post on the IL2 BBS ... disingenuous at best ...

I wanted to ask a question or two about this sim but I see no point about going to their forum.

I've been playing Il2 for 3 years and then just for giggles I thought I'd try Aces High. Lordy, lord. Talk about culture shock or something.culture shock due to your inability to actually fly?

The graphics absolutely suck. The cockpits are ridiculous and the fm for aircraft are shocking compared to Il2. For example, I can easily avoid a p38 or p51 in a zero in Il2. I was amazed at what those two birds can do in Aces High. Is this realistic? They were kicking my butt at low altitude.dude, if you can't dodge a pony or a lightning in a zeke......jeeze, i don't even have words that i can type here....

So I'm confused. What am I missing here? What is the attraction? Can somebody explain what the devil is going on with a game like that.

Oh yes. The reason I'm checking it out is because I ran into an Aces High bloke while playing multiplayer Il2. This guy was totally disappointed with Il2 and claimed he was returning the game. Something about fms sucking. Yeah, I can understand that after sticking my toes in the water with Aces High.i've talke dot a few that flew il2. they all said, that each different model of aircraft flew pretty much the same. not very good, but i have no personal experience there.

Like I said, no point in going to the Aces High forum to post this because they are obviously fans. Maybe somebody here could explain the really, really big fan base there.AND YOU REBUTTED MY POST ASKING HOW YOU WERE DISHONEST? YOU SCHMUCK!!!!

Who gives a rats arse about cockpit detail ... I'm sure all the fighter pilots in WWII were admiring their cockpits rather that concentrate on the enemy at hand while dogfighting.

I can dodge P-38s and P-51s all day long in a Zero ... it's you ... not the FM ... and as Shane pointed out, you probably have the "stall limiter" set on, but rather than figure out all that first and then take a longer and more objective look at this game, you felt compelled to go back to the IL2 BBS to make you feel better about you failing in Aces High.

slap...sorry to use your post for that........

[nonaste]

Hey Cap.

Thanks man.  Your opinion is precious, just precious. I'll be sure to file it in the appropriate place.

[CAP1]

Since you insist on continuing on this course I'll assist you.  I didn't spew crap, as you so eloquently classify it.  It was on opinion which was corroborated by other members of the Il-2 community. I didn't say I am a convert and with your attitude that goal may be hindered, which I believe you couldn't give a damn about, short sighted as that is.


I'm not embarrassed by my comments but you should be with your unwarranted, though understandable, hostility.
i don't know how old you are....but you should learn..and very quickly....don't say things about anything or anybody that you wouldn't say to them.


Perhaps I was out flown but the 110 flight model here is drastically different than the FM there and THAT is NOT arguable.  Certainly with the right angles, speed, etc. and a little luck a 110 can get a snapshot on a spit and bring him down in a diving attack.  But in a flat fight.  No way in Il-2.  Flight model had a definite effect on that fight, providing he didn't get me with a deflection shot, which he didn't.  He was on me like white on rice.

it is 10 times harder to shake a con than it is to track a con. you were simply outflown. did you use any throttle management? flaps? anything besides a simple flat turn?


Kurfurst in an expert on technical aspects of German war planes and I value his opinion but he still wasn't there to see my short lived fight. One guy said the QMB test was not valid.  Kurfurst didn't say that.  He said the 110 can be underestimated. 


Your tactics sound good but you too didn't see the fight.  There was no energy  to transition to the vertical after bleeding my e off making reverse turns, jinking and then going into a tight 360 as a final resort.  What do you think was or should have been happening to his e after all this? Huh?  you pulled your turns WAY too hard if you lost all of that e in a spit. i con diving from your six is the absolute easiest to avoid. on top of that, if you do it right, you can gain alt each time you avoid, and pretty soon take away his advantage. it just seems you il2 guys don't know how to do that.
go to the TA, and learn to fly these planes.

[Motherland]

I made the decision to dig deeper into this game despite the negativity of the comments over there.  I just wanted some input.  I didn't expect complete objectivity, although a couple guys said encouraging things about AH which is basically what I wanted to hear, and not from here.

Trying to put this the most polite way possible... but when you down-talk something you obviously know little about (not trying to be rude/negative, but you are very unfamiliar with the way things work in Aces High, obviously), and then post a link to the forum you made it in... you've got to expect that kind of response.
Most of the problems you encountered are simply because you don't know what you're doing... again, not trying to be rude, but the 'I can't avoid a P51 in a Zeke' and 'I can't snap stall a 110C' make this very obvious.

So, some advice...
First and fore most, turn off the stall limiter... these are nice training wheels for newbies who have never flown a sim before, but as you've flown in Il2 for a while it won't help you much. The stall limiter, as a trade-off for making aircraft insanely easy to fly, severely limits performance, as well as, I imagine, making the aircraft feel similar.

Also, many of the aircraft have been updated from their old AH1 graphics models, but some still haven't... the A6M, Hurricane, 110, etc. are far from equal to the F4U, P39, La7, etc. that have been recently updated. Also, you can shift your head view up VERY far in the Bf.110, letting you get very nice deflection shots due to it's over-the-nose visibility.

Hope I was of some help...

[nonaste]

Thanks Motherland.

[CAP1]

Hey Cap.

Thanks man.  Your opinion is precious, just precious. I'll be sure to file it in the appropriate place.

ya, i know ya love me man. i can feel it all the way over here

like i said, not trying to be nasty, but you should take time to learn.

then talk

[BnZ]

Nonaste:

Plane A being able to cut an angle on plane B turning flat and making a crossing snap-shot is nothing remarkable at all. A 262 could do it to a Zero, in the right circumstances. Like I say, I suspect the difficulty in viewing/gunnery you are used to in the other game is why you are also used to a flat turn working easily as a defense.

In AHII, the black out comes at 6 Gs. Some men can stand more Gs, yes, some men less. But 6 is probably a good average for pilots without G-suits. If both of you are above corner speed, then both of you are G-limited in your turns, thus no advantage to either plane (Unless their are high speed control issues.) So if the speeds were right, the 110 could also just pull lead for an in-plane shot without having to cut an angle.

Which brings up another point. One thing I think Il2 does do better than AHII is modeling elevator/control stiffness at high speed. AHII planes seem very generous in this regard...you have to get 110s and 109s past 400 IAS ( power-dive) to get a loss of authority so severe you can't pull 6 Gs...some reading I've done suggest both airplanes should get very stiff elevators at lower speeds than that. You pretty much have the same issues across the board, in general, AHII airplanes handle speed alot better than Il2 airplanes. Except for the Japanese stuff, in AHII you are NOT going to experience structural failure from dive speed alone in a fighter. This might be another reason why the 110 was not as easy a kill as you are used to.

It is also possible, that due to lag issues, the pilot of the 110 had lead on you and a shot on his screen, while on your screen it looked like he did not have sufficient lead.

In conclusion, to help you understand what is happening, below is a film in AHF format of one of the worst turning fighters in the game, making shots on things that turn better. There is no "out-turning" involved here, only cutting across the circle of the bandit's turn with the shot. If after viewing this you believe the 190 D9 is also modeled incorrectly and "turns better" than the Spit and Mustang, go into the DA and get into a Luftberry with a Spitfire or Mustang.

http://www.mediafire.com/?gmlg30gejtd

[Ack-Ack]

Good point.

Keep it civil SlapShot.  What I said in the FB forum was not intended for you to bring back here and throw into the fan. 

Sure makes you look foolish and rather hypocritical though.

Having only played this game for four days I will not possess knowledge of all the intricacies of AH.  I can only make observations of the difference in flight modeling.  And like I said before, having never flown this type of aircraft, I have no clue what is accurate and true in either game.  Do you?

But your comments about the Bf 110C being impossible to stall and then you whining about it on the forums just shows that you really didn't put much forth into learning AH.  You just assumed because you think you're some hot stick in another game that you should be the same in here.  Unfortunately, you didn't learn about the stall limiter which is why you couldn't stall it.  Had you taken the time to learn or just a few minutes to read the manual, you would have known the stall limiter is enabled by default.  The bf 110C didn't stall because of a porked flight model.

So please spare me your outrage.  I'm entitled to my opinion and I kept  my negative comments about AH on UBI and I haven't attacked anyone here in this thread.  Can you say the same?

You are entitled to your opinion and I don't think Slap was denying you that right.  He was just pointing out your duplicity on both forums.  You can't really get a better example of being two-faced.

ack-ack

[BnZ]

"For example, I can easily avoid a p38 or p51 in a zero in Il2. I was amazed at what those two birds can do in Aces High. Is this realistic? They were kicking my butt at low altitude."

This quote more than anything else convinces that you are missing something very basic. The P-51 especially handles worse in turning in AHII than in Il2. She cannot BEGIN to match any of the 109s in this game as a turner. Neither the Mustang nor the Lightning can hold a candle to the Zeke as a turner in AHII. Like I say, go get into a Luftberry with one if you don't believe me. This statement also tends to confirm my theory, the difference between Il2 and AHII you are not used to is the fact that deflection shooting is actually practical with AHII's viewing system.

[Ack-Ack]

The cockpits are ridiculous and the fm for aircraft are shocking compared to Il2. For example, I can easily avoid a p38 or p51 in a zero in Il2. I was amazed at what those two birds can do in Aces High. Is this realistic? They were kicking my butt at low altitude.

Sounds like you really don't know what either plane was capable of in real life.  However, if you were in a Zeke on the deck angles fighting with a P-51 or a P-38 and was out maneuvered, you screwed up, plain and simple.  Though, it sounds like your ego won't allow you to accept the fact you screwed up or flew poorly and instead you blame the flight model.


ack-ack

[nonaste]

Thanks BnZ.  On the fifth day I was told to turn the stall limiter off.  I saw it early on but wasn't sure what it's purpose was, although the title is plain as day.

[Ack-Ack]

Perhaps I was out flown but the 110 flight model here is drastically different than the FM there and THAT is NOT arguable.  Certainly with the right angles, speed, etc. and a little luck a 110 can get a snapshot on a spit and bring him down in a diving attack.  But in a flat fight.  No way in Il-2.  Flight model had a definite effect on that fight, providing he didn't get me with a deflection shot, which he didn't.  He was on me like white on rice.

No, it wasn't the flight model that killed you, it was your poor SA and flying.  If you were in a flat turn and the other guy was diving on you, he didn't have to turn to gain an angle.  All he just needs to do is roll into your turn and he's already inside with an angle for the kill.  It's basic ACM.


ack-ack