seafire vs. bf110

[bozon]

How is this possible?  The spit has a turn time of approx. 17 at 1000m per second as opposed to the 110 turn time of 33.  The BF110 can no way stay in a turn with a spit but yet it happened.  This makes me wonder about flight modeling.

Can somebody explain this please.

This is the most common miss-conception of turning ability. If you said you were riding the tunnel it means that you were pulling 6G. If the speed was high enough, any fighter can pull 6G and match your turn. The spit's turning advantage is at SLOW speed where the opponent (and usually you) cannot pull into the blackout.

Then there's the whole matter of geometry - you opponent will almost NEVER fly with you on the same circle. He will have a different radius and/or the circle centers will be displaced. In that case he can turn slower than you and still pull lead to shoot you down. This is how fast, heavy wing-loaded planes outturn the spits. Infact, the heavy loaded "poor turning" planes often have the advantage at high speed over the spit - they will dump they speed quicker and have a smaller turning circle. At high speed the spit has absolutely no turning advantage and is even at some disadvantage in the beginning.

[BnZ]

Actually in Il2, the view system is so difficult, the noses of planes so  "bouncy" and the gunnery so hard that cutting inside for a crossing-snapshot or a "blind lead" snapshot are either one feats to accomplish. Any 'ole defense will  usually do, under those circumstances, and the fighter that can just turn and keep on turning until it gets a point-blank, little/no AoT tracking shot, is heavily favored.

Have I said before, thank God and HTC for Aces High?

What you describe would have happened in IL2 if the other guy was any good, it's not a quirk of the AH flight model.  You just ran into someone that was a little more proficient or lucky and was simply able to cut inside of your turn.


ack-ack

[Yenny]

did he flat turn with you or perform a high yo-yo to stay on ya?

[nonaste]

I haven't played Il-2.  Anyone care to elaborate on the differences?

Once you get past the graphics and sounds Il-2 has a heavy emphasis on historical detail regarding the technical aspects of flight, engine and gun performance of the models presented in the game.  If you go to the forums you encounter unbelievable arguments in technical minutae anywhere from the prop to the piston and every nut and bolt in between.  I don't know if there are any engineers in there but some of those guys certainly sound like one.  Then you get umpteen chart monkeys posting umpteen, boring charts on specs and performance.  They certainly get carried away with it.  Some of their opinions must have some validity because some of their input has been incorporated in 9 different patches that have been supplied in the seven years it's been out.  Despite its age the game requires a  high end computer and graphics card to utilize max settings.

The flying experience is completely different than Aces High.  The feel of the aircraft is different as is their perormance.

This link will take you to the Wikipedia article on Il-2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IL-2_Sturmovik_(game)

This link will take you to the forum.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/23110283

Don't misunderstand.  I do NOT think Il-2 is perfect.  If I did I wouldn't be here now, would I?  There are aspects I don't like (but there is no arguing with the graphics and the attention to detail).  Although contrary to monstrous protestations of denial by the die hard fans some suspect the game has a Russian bias.  Some say the American fighters, like the 51 and 38 are porked.  Who knows.  I certainly don't, having never flown these aircraft, much less in combat. 

But the attention to detail is impressive.

Bottom line and as I said before, two different games with different strengths and weakness to be aware of and get accustomed to.

I really wish a sim that accurately reflects ww2 aircraft could be made.  But I suppose that is a pipe dream, considering what the market is willing to bear in software and equipment expenses.  This ww2 flying sim stuff is a niche market that caters to aviation geeks which is a relatively small number of the gaming population.

[CAP1]

Well guys, thanks for the input. 

I came here after three years in Il-2.  (I was intrigued by the concept of what AH offers.) I'm therefore used to different fms, among other things.  So it simply means getting used to what is presented in AH, for better or for worse.  They are two different games with different strengths and weaknesses and goals, I imagine.

hey dude,

if you've only just started AH, go into the training arena for an hour. it'll be the best hour you spend learning. there's almost always a trainer in there, and if not, some experienced players that love to help outr noobs.


welcome aboard!!  <<S>>

[crockett]

If you can get a 110 slow enough with it's flaps full out it will out turn just about any plane in the game. Even with out the flaps it's still quite capable of turning pretty good in experanced hands. The C-4b model turns the best but even the G-2 can turn great in the right hands. I flew that beast (110G-2) as a fighter for about a tour or two and it was funny to suprise guys that thought they were in for a eay kill.

[BnZ]

I own and fly them both. There are select aspects in which Il2 betters AHII, perhaps, but not many. Il2 has managed to stick every WWII airplane imaginable into their lineup, which is impressive, but it gets just as many details wrong as AHII, if not more. AHII certainly has a more complex flight modeling; Back when I had my old computer, I was running Il2 just fine on fairly high graphics settings I wouldn't even have attempted to use in AHII. The extra computing power AHII sucks down must be going to the aerodynamic calculations.

Mainly what kills Il2 in my mind in comparison to AHII though is an awful viewing system, unless you happen to own TrackIR, the bizarre instability of the aircraft, and the a-historically impotent nature of the weapons, especially .50s.

If I want to look at some pretty scenery and hear some nice sound effects while popping a few AIs, I boot up Il2. If I want some real chess-game ACM, I start AHII.

Once you get used to AH Nonaste, you'll be doing ACM, especially out-of-plane ACM and Energy fighting, on a level that is practically impossible in Il2, owing to the viewing and shooting difficulties of that sim.

[crockett]

I own and fly them both. There are select aspects in which Il2 betters AHII, perhaps, but not many. Il2 has managed to stick every WWII airplane imaginable into their lineup, which is impressive, but it gets just as many details wrong as AHII, if not more. AHII certainly has a more complex flight modeling; Back when I had my old computer, I was running Il2 just fine on fairly high graphics settings I wouldn't even have attempted to use in AHII. The extra computing power AHII sucks down must be going to the aerodynamic calculations.

Mainly what kills Il2 in my mind in comparison to AHII though is an awful viewing system, unless you happen to own TrackIR, the bizarre instability of the aircraft, and the a-historically impotent nature of the weapons, especially .50s.

If I want to look at some pretty scenery and hear some nice sound effects while popping a few AIs, I boot up Il2. If I want some real chess-game ACM, I start AHII.

Once you get used to AH Nonaste, you'll be doing ACM, especially out-of-plane ACM and Energy fighting, on a level that is practically impossible in Il2, owing to the viewing and shooting difficulties of that sim.

I personally don't like the IL2's because they allow for 3rd person view. The plane is a great turner and has awesome guns but I won't give any IL2 a serious fight, I'll just BnZ pick them if I can because of the 3rd person. It allows them to get in 3rd person and easily make shots 1k out because they don't really have to aim. You can just spray and pray using the tracers and hit guys 800 to 1k out and get lucky shots on them.

[mg1942]

I personally don't like the IL2's because they allow for 3rd person view. The plane is a great turner and has awesome guns but I won't give any IL2 a serious fight, I'll just BnZ pick them if I can because of the 3rd person. It allows them to get in 3rd person and easily make shots 1k out because they don't really have to aim. You can just spray and pray using the tracers and hit guys 800 to 1k out and get lucky shots on them.

Do you play OFFLINE or ONLINE?

Because when you go online, it's as HARD CORE as it gets in some arenas where they turn off automatic engine management and external views.

[nonaste]

Do you play OFFLINE or ONLINE?

Because when you go online, it's as HARD CORE as it gets in some arenas where they turn off automatic engine management and external views.

Online.  I'm strictly a dog fighter there.  Here I like to mess with the ground vehicles, AA and tanks 'n stuff as well as planes.

 Depends on the server in Il-2  Some are very arcade others are full real.  Full real is AH for sure.  Thank God for TrackIr.

Damn, I kept trying to flick that bug off of my screen.

[SlapShot]

Online.  I'm strictly a dog fighter there.  Here I like to mess with the ground vehicles, AA and tanks 'n stuff as well as planes.

 Depends on the server in Il-2  Some are very arcade others are full real.  Full real is AH for sure.  Thank God for TrackIr.

Damn, I kept trying to flick that bug off of my screen.

Why don't you just cut the crap and quit talking out both side of your mouth ... Here is a post from you on the IL2 BBS ...

I just came back from AH after trying out THEIR version of the 110c. My experience borders on the Twilight Zone. Their version handles damn close to the Il2 La7 and that aint much of an exageration, probably closer would be the Il2 Spit III. No wonder he easily stayed on my six.

This is NOT reasonable. With evenno charts, spec sheets etc or technical expertise common sense would not permit one to believe this. A heavy, twin eng. fighter, attack plane outmaneuvering a relatively light fighter. No way.

I agree with you idonno. Performance is suspiciously close between A/C in AH. I suspect the developers didn't do quite as much research as the Il2 crew.

Oh yes. I could NOT stall out and spin the 110c in AH. Had the stick full back. She would climb, mush, and then climb again without airspeed dropping below 150 mph. Come on. Get serious.

What you "suspect" and what is "real" ... are polar opposites ... statements such as that smack of ignorance.

You have just basically scratched the surface of this game and it's Flight Model, and I know that you haven't even spent the time flying each plane in the inventory to make the claim that the "performance is suspiciously close between A/C" ... after 6+ years playing this game ... I can tell you without doubt, that the performance is definitely different between planes.

[Shane]

Why don't you just cut the crap and quit talking out both side of your mouth ... Here is a post from you on the IL2 BBS ...

Oh yes. I could NOT stall out and spin the 110c in AH. Had the stick full back. She would climb, mush, and then climb again without airspeed dropping below 150 mph. Come on. Get serious.

oooh snap...  also seems someone is flying with the stall limiter enabled...

[RATTFINK]

Why don't you just cut the crap and quit talking out both side of your mouth ... Here is a post from you on the IL2 BBS ...

I just came back from AH after trying out THEIR version of the 110c. My experience borders on the Twilight Zone. Their version handles damn close to the Il2 La7 and that aint much of an exageration, probably closer would be the Il2 Spit III. No wonder he easily stayed on my six.

This is NOT reasonable. With evenno charts, spec sheets etc or technical expertise common sense would not permit one to believe this. A heavy, twin eng. fighter, attack plane outmaneuvering a relatively light fighter. No way.

I agree with you idonno. Performance is suspiciously close between A/C in AH. I suspect the developers didn't do quite as much research as the Il2 crew.

Oh yes. I could NOT stall out and spin the 110c in AH. Had the stick full back. She would climb, mush, and then climb again without airspeed dropping below 150 mph. Come on. Get serious.

What you "suspect" and what is "real" ... are polar opposites ... statements such as that smack of ignorance.

You have just basically scratched the surface of this game and it's Flight Model, and I know that you haven't even spent the time flying each plane in the inventory to make the claim that the "performance is suspiciously close between A/C" ... after 6+ years playing this game ... I can tell you without doubt, that the performance is definitely different between planes.

Someone does their homework.

[save]

in WarBirds 110c can turn good, but lacks the power it has in AH.

[nonaste]

oooh snap...  also seems someone is flying with the stall limiter enabled...

Good point.

Why don't you just cut the crap and quit talking out both side of your mouth ... Here is a post from you on the IL2 BBS ...

What you "suspect" and what is "real" ... are polar opposites ... statements such as that smack of ignorance.

You have just basically scratched the surface of this game and it's Flight Model, and I know that you haven't even spent the time flying each plane in the inventory to make the claim that the "performance is suspiciously close between A/C" ... after 6+ years playing this game ... I can tell you without doubt, that the performance is definitely different between planes.

Keep it civil SlapShot.  What I said in the FB forum was not intended for you to bring back here and throw into the fan.  Getting nasty accomplishes nothing except hard feeling.  It doesn't make converts.  Keep that in perspective, ok.  Flame wars with fanboys (on either side) is fruitless.

Having only played this game for four days I will not possess knowledge of all the intricacies of AH.  I can only make observations of the difference in flight modeling.  And like I said before, having never flown this type of aircraft, I have no clue what is accurate and true in either game.  Do you?

 So please spare me your outrage.  I'm entitled to my opinion and I kept  my negative comments about AH on UBI and I haven't attacked anyone here in this thread.  Can you say the same?