Author Topic: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?  (Read 8940 times)

Offline GGhost

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #120 on: February 03, 2009, 12:37:03 PM »
Here is some facts on the Sherman Vs the Tiger I tank. The game is way off at times. The link of the information is included for proof.

History channel had some interview with Sherman tank commanders. One commander stated that: " We saw the German Tiger I on the street and so we backed up behind a building. The Tiger was several blocks away and still managed to shoot through 2 buildings and still hit our side of our Sherman killing most of the crew and the engine. This was a British tank commander - (Sherman M4 - Firefly).

Penetration Table 02: Sherman A2 , Sherman A4 , Tiger I .
                                                                                                
                                                                                             
               Tiger I vs. Sherman A2       Sherman A2 vs. Tiger I          Tiger I vs. Sherman A4                Sherman A4 vs. Tiger I
                    (88 mm KwK)                 (75 mm M3)                         (88 mm KwK)                               (76 mm M4)
Front: Turret    1800 m                           0 m                               1800 m                                            700 m
Mantlet              200 m                           0 m                                200 m                                            100 m
DFP*                 0 m                           0 m                                    0 m                                             600 m
Nose            2100 m                           0 m                                 2100 m                                             400 m
Side: Turret    3500 m                        100 m                               3500 m                                            1800 m
Superstructure    3500 m                        100 m                              3500 m                                            1800 m
Hull                    3500 m                        900 m                              3500 m                                      3200 m
Rear: Turret      3500 m                        100 m                               3500 m                                            1800 m
Hull                    3500 m                            0 m                               3500 m                                            1700 m

* DFP = Drivers Front Plate
Source : JENTZ, Thomas L.; Germany's TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics; ISBN 0-7643-0225-6

Source link: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

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« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:38:52 PM by GGhost »
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #121 on: February 03, 2009, 01:19:28 PM »
Thanks for the additional info GGhost. Although it's always good to see the actual data and not go on reputation alone, IMHO the Tiger's reputation as a killer was well deserved. :uhoh
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Offline GGhost

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #122 on: February 03, 2009, 01:31:06 PM »
Yes, the Tiger I was a true heavy tank with a high velocity large 88 MM caliber main gun. Some people forget that this gun was a large Anti-aircraft flak gun shooting flak at bombers at high altitude. Just modified the gun and some shells for the tank usage. The armor thickness on this beast was unbelievable.

Nice links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N87P6YHnUsk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBp4eWqXfno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Dwo7BY2Qg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SntWB7Wjv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxppM8DaXtg


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« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:05:50 PM by GGhost »
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #123 on: February 03, 2009, 01:34:50 PM »
I'm just surprised that more eyebrows aren't raised when we hear about 88mm rds bouncing off of Shermans.
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Offline GGhost

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2009, 01:51:53 PM »
Allot of them are driving M4 - Shermans.....Maybe the Shermans need to be perked more?  And correct the dynamics of the game. And lower the Tiger I perk points also to more user friendly range.

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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #125 on: February 03, 2009, 03:07:37 PM »
Allot of them are driving M4 - Shermans.....Maybe the Shermans need to be perked more?  And correct the dynamics of the game. And lower the Tiger I perk points also to more user friendly range.

<S> GGHOST
Sherman's definitely don't need to be perked more. They need to correct the damage model for the Sherman. The 76mm may pack a whallop, but the chassis itself is not survivable against 88mm fire.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #126 on: February 03, 2009, 03:10:13 PM »
Sherman's definitely don't need to be perked more. They need to correct the damage model for the Sherman. The 76mm may pack a whallop, but the chassis itself is not survivable against 88mm fire.

If they don't change its damage model, then they do need to perk it more.  It's far more important to me that the perked vehicles reflect their cost than that they are 100% historically accurate.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #127 on: February 03, 2009, 03:14:50 PM »
i think in actuality that the game models up all allied equipment over the down modeling of the axis equipment.

i dont say this to start an argument or to hear brain dead insulting and retarded retorts from the players in the peanut gallery, so save them for someone else.

my point is simple really, if you exactly model equipment such as the Tiger to be as purely dominant in the game as they were in rl, then you would have only german equipment being used. there would be little to no variation or variety on the AH battle field.

lets face a simple fact, germany was defeated in a war of attrition, never in the war of technology or quality.

if AH didnt model in some weaknesses then you would see fields of tigers and nothing else. this is completely unrealistic as the numbers, or actually the lack of numbers, of the tigers fielded during the war was their achilles heal and the only reason they were defeated.

i dont remember his name but he was a famous tiger commander so you could look it up, but anyways the guy stated " one of our tigers could easily take on and destroy 10 t34's, but there was always an 11th". his point was that the horde wins.

it was the same review for the shermans.

the allies defeated germany by putting more tanks and equipment into the field than the germans could destroy, compound that with resupply issues, area saturation bombing by high alt bombers, and close in ground pounding by fighter support squadrons and the tigers in such limited numbers could not compete. they were simply overwhelmed.

think of how miserable the gv wars would be if you had even as few as 10 or 12 properly model tigers on the field and entrenched. even bringing in tigers of your own would not do alot of good, you would be killed while moving in to find the enemy tigers. every battle would become lop sided in favor of the guy who parked his tank first. the only way to clear the field would be by massive carpet bombing campaigns, thus ending the GV v. GV combat aspect of the game.

i personally hate how AH has under modeled most of the german equipment, but i understand it and agree with the implementation of the  intentional under modeling in these circumstances. without finding a way to build into the game the restrictions of availability and supply that the germans suffered from during the war, the german equipment would be the only thing anybody would field. unless that is they enjoy being sent to the tower every ten seconds.

in reality nothing the allies had was the equal too, let alone the superior of, the equipment fielded by the germans. but the allies had numbers and they used those numbers to tip the balance in their favor.

the only reasonable way to implement any kind of fair play into the game, without massive programing issues, is to up model some things while simultaneously down modeling others in search of a balance that makes the game playable while promoting variety.

if a sherman had less than a 10% chance of killing a tiger and there was a tiger on the field would you take out the sherman knowing he had a 100% chance of killing you? no, you would up bombers and pound the field until all the tigers were dead then you would up your own tiger. the ground game would die a miserably lonely death.

i hate the way it is but i understand the purpose of it, so i find it to be an acceptable evil in comparison to what would happen in the alternative.
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Offline ScatterFire

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #128 on: February 03, 2009, 04:03:31 PM »
Stuff about good gameplay
I think most of us that run GVs agree with you; no one wants an all-powerful vehicle at any perk cost because it isn't fun for either party.  Same as camping a spawn point isn't "fun"...

The fun is the hunt and the semi-panic of trying to get the kill before you are killed when you screw up and are positioned badly or out-foxed.

We do want the strength, or lack there-of, to be reflected in the perk cost though.  Right now the difference in survivability doesn't warrant the 4x perk cost of the tiger when one VC has no trouble in killing it and the VC's perk is low enough no one has any issue upping them even when they expect to die.  Tigers survive better against aircraft, to an extent.  But at a much higher perk cost they sure aren't that much more survivable or deadly to other tanks, especially the ones with the minor perks like the VC or T34/85.
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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #129 on: February 03, 2009, 04:42:37 PM »
I never thought about it from that perspective FLOTSOM, but I suspect that you're right. Here's an idea.. how about Sherman drones (only about 5% serious with that one :D)

The German commander you're referring to, is it Michael Wittman, or a more senior officer?
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #130 on: February 03, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »


lets face a simple fact, germany was defeated in a war of attrition, never in the war of technology or quality.


Stating the reasons that the Germans had the most formidable tanks in production is defensible. As a blanket statement, though, what you say is not defensible. Numerous circumstances where one side did A better, another did B better. The Germans were desperate at the end of the war, and tried to put into effective production some futuristic or frankly crackpot ideas they thought might turn the tide, a thing which the Allies had no reason to do. There were a ton of "ahead of their time" ideas floating around on the other side too, if one cares to research. "Red Skull"-esque legends of Germany's evil omnipotent super scientists are greatly exaggerated by the History Channel and etc.


i personally hate how AH has under modeled most of the german equipment, but i understand it and agree with the implementation of the  intentional under modeling in these circumstances.

How many examples of the opposite phenomenon do you want? I have plenty.

 If anything there would be more reason to undermodel Allied equipment that will be sufficiently popular on name-recognition alone, to "balance" things. However, I wouldn't bet any money that this is actually going on.

Much more likely that any true flaws result from just how hard what HTC sets out to do really is.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #131 on: February 03, 2009, 05:04:18 PM »
If they don't change its damage model, then they do need to perk it more.  It's far more important to me that the perked vehicles reflect their cost than that they are 100% historically accurate.

Blasphemy! :D Equipment should be modeled to the highest fidelity possible and then perked accordingly,not the other way around.
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Offline FLOTSOM

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #132 on: February 03, 2009, 06:01:12 PM »
The German commander you're referring to, is it Michael Wittman, or a more senior officer?

it could have been wittman, but i dont remember. i know it was a man that saw some action in all of the major arena's germany was involved in. it was a book that i read some years ago that was written by him and/or his son finished it for him, based upon his diary he kept in the war.

Stating the reasons that the Germans had the most formidable tanks in production is defensible. As a blanket statement, though, what you say is not defensible. Numerous circumstances where one side did A better, another did B better. The Germans were desperate at the end of the war, and tried to put into effective production some futuristic or frankly crackpot ideas they thought might turn the tide, a thing which the Allies had no reason to do. There were a ton of "ahead of their time" ideas floating around on the other side too, if one cares to research. "Red Skull"-esque legends of Germany's evil omnipotent super scientists are greatly exaggerated by the History Channel and etc.


How many examples of the opposite phenomenon do you want? I have plenty.

 If anything there would be more reason to undermodel Allied equipment that will be sufficiently popular on name-recognition alone, to "balance" things. However, I wouldn't bet any money that this is actually going on.

Much more likely that any true flaws result from just how hard what HTC sets out to do really is.

alas my BnZ i do both agree and disagree with all that you say. the issues of technological advancements would be a long and drawn out affair and not do justice to this thread so i will not discuss it here except to say that i was not referring to either sides perceived hopes placed in future tech but only into items that were built in some numbers and saw enough combat to say that they actually participated in the war.

as to the History channels exaggerations and misinformation of history i do sooooooo agree. you will get no argument from me on that.

i think if you comparison shop the built in cobbling and hindering of the performance and capabilities of the equipment between both the allied and axis sides, you will find some badly modeled axis equipment out there as opposed to some almost god like ability found with the ranks of the allies.

but even that conversation would turn this thread into an irrational insult fest quickly as the over opinionated and under intelligent mouths got into the mix.

so i will agree to disagree with you on the current topic between us and renew to the op's original topic of the neutered tiger.

as i sated above, a purely and precisely modeled tiger would unfortunately destroy ground war playability. so for now, until such a time as the powers that be decide to find a more appropriate way to regulate the use of the beast without allowing it to single handedly dominate the battle field, i will settle for a slightly under modeled version.

but i do agree that as it is under modeled it does not earn the perk cost that it currently suffers under. that is an easier issue that can in the current environment, be dealt with by HTC.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:06:52 PM by FLOTSOM »
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Offline shreck

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #133 on: February 03, 2009, 06:47:00 PM »
the only way to clear the field would be by massive carpet bombing campaigns, thus ending the GV v. GV combat aspect of the game.

Or 1 or 2 UBERGUNNED IL2s! Nowadays all that it takes is 1 IL2 to clear out several tigers as well as any other GV with nothing more than GUNS!-----------------> very sad  :furious

Offline TwentyFo

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Re: The mighty TIGER, or not so much?
« Reply #134 on: February 03, 2009, 07:23:58 PM »
Or 1 or 2 UBERGUNNED IL2s! Nowadays all that it takes is 1 IL2 to clear out several tigers as well as any other GV with nothing more than GUNS!-----------------> very sad  :furious

Yea, I know it sucks how easy it is to kill a Tiger in an IL2. It's all about angle of attack
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