Have Gun, Will Travel. Sarah Palin a Good VP pick?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Considering it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the letter in question about the intent of the 1st Amendment, well I'll take his word on it. I'll also take James Madison's word on it because he wrote much of the 1st amendment and is considered the father of our constitution.  He had pretty much the same view as TJ..

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” James Maddision 1803

That's two.. how many more you need?

Again, the Constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion, it does not forbid the government from doing anything else. As an example, how many times is GOD referred to in the founding documents? We know that they were referring to GOD in the Judeao/Christian meaning because throughout the history of the founding of this nation, the Judeao/Christian religion was very obviously practiced by the vast majority of those responsible for the founding documents. No doubt that some of the founding members were for even more separation of religion from government than others were. And Jefferson as well as Madison may have been among them. That does NOT mean that the Constitution agrees with their level of separation. Further, the continued and constant references to GOD, as well as the use of Judeao/Christian values in the founding documents, leaves little doubt that there was no intent to remove GOD or religion from government completely.

[Toad]

umm ok it's in the 1st amendment, if you want to be that picky.

The phrase is from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Google it up, it's not that long.

Cliff's Notes version is that Jefferson thought that religious rights are inalienable and that the federal government had no right to legislate on religious matters in any way.

It in no way offers a view from Jefferson that the Constitution would prevent the Senate from hiring a chaplain to (gasp!) offer a prayer at the opening of a Senate session. (/gasp!)

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Do you even know where that phrase comes from?

Again, tell me why the first act of the first US Senate was to appoint a chaplain. Then tell me how that shows "separation of Church & State" in our constitution.

BTW, that phrase is not in our Constitution.

But he and others DESPERATELY WANT it to be. And since they believe the Constitution to be a "living document", their desires actually make it so. The fact that you can show him it is not in the Constitution does not matter.

[Shuckins]

Crockett, the Founding Fathers were all well schooled in the state-sponsored religious atrocities of the Middle Ages and the Protestant Reformation:  the Inquisition; the Hussite Wars;  the persecution of Scottish Lutherans;  the massacres of French Huguenots;  the imprisonment of English Separatists and Puritans;  and the Thirty Years War in Germany.

The concept of "separation of Church and State", while not stated directly in the First Amendment, was implicit in its intent.  However, it is a modern day fallacy that the Founding Fathers intended for the electorate to leave their religious convictions at home on election day.  Modern opponents of religious activism have tried to paint these men as being some type of new age "deists" who were somehow outside the mainstream religious beliefs of the rest of the nation.  Those opponents are mistaken....the Founding Fathers were solidly in the contemporary Christian camp, and their writings and letters leave no doubt about that.

They realised that religious tenets provide a moral compass for the citizen.  Without that compass, the ship-of-state would be adrift, and at the mercy of every ideological fad and dangerous political tide that the world can produce.

[Toad]

But he and others DESPERATELY WANT it to be. And since they believe the Constitution to be a "living document", their desires actually make it so. The fact that you can show him it is not in the Constitution does not matter.

Well, there's that old line that applies: To a conservative, seeing is believing. To a liberal, believing is seeing.

[Elfie]

The letter to the Danbury Baptists from Jefferson. Notice the last sentence, Jefferson himself was not without religious beliefs as he indicates he himself will pray for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

[Toad]

The closing statements from TJ's 1st and 2nd inaugural addresses:

1st: "And may that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe lead our councils to what is best, and give them a favorable issue for your peace and prosperity."


2nd: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations."


(GASP!) He invoked a Higher Being in his inaugural addresses! Didn't TJ realize that there has to be separation between Church and State? You can't mention a Higher Being when you discuss leadership of the nation!  Holy CHIT! He asked a Higher Being to guide their councils! That's... that's... that's like a prayer! Quick, call the ACLU!!! We have to sue Jefferson!(/GASP!)

[Elfie]

it is a modern day fallacy that the Founding Fathers intended for the electorate to leave their religious convictions at home on election day.

Another modern day fallacy is that the founders intended for there to be no interaction between the church and state at all. I used the examples of children praying in school and school facilities being used for Bible studies with like minded individuals earlier in the thread.

[culero]

lol what is it with McCain and his little beauty queens, anyway?
snip

Good taste in trim!

[Shuckins]

You're spot on Elfie.  They realized that it would be impossible to separate voters from their religious convictions in any case.

[SD67]

Something for the pilots to note She's also very pro GA.
The Aero publications have been very quick to pick up on it.
McCain has made a smart move there.

[Elfie]

You're spot on Elfie.  They realized that it would be impossible to separate voters from their religious convictions in any case.

I would expand upon that Shuckins and say that it is impossible to separate voters from their convictions regardless of religious beliefs or not.

The most ridiculous argument made in these political threads is when people think that I (or any other person with religious beliefs) should leave those convictions outside the voting booth while those same people making that argument insist on voting according to their own convictions.

[lasersailor184]

As an outsider I think its a clever choice.

It shows McCain a far more "modern" leader than Obama, because despite all his chanting about change - Obama went safe and choose a 60+ white democratic stalwart. McCain has also moved away from the traditional white men only republican ticket which also further defuses Obama's change message, has given the real anger felt by Hillary hardliners an alternative (its still a big leap), from early reports here she's a traditional conservative, a fast and proven administrator, and with 5 kids (with one in the Army etc etc) only helps McCain in the traditional conservative electorates. Her "inexperience" is a slight problem because McCain really can't capitalise further on Obama's - but I would see it as bonus because being younger than Obama she can counter anything Obama/Biden can throw at McCains age, and the lines about being out of touch.

Obama did make a mistake not taking Hillary onboard, and I personally thought a McCain/Powell ticket would've been a slamdunk - but I do think it was a very good move by McCain, and maybe will make him president?

 Tronsky

What the Vice President choices REALLY show us, is how far whacked the democratic party is.  As crazy and as power hungry as Hillary Clinton is, she would have known at least to pick a more moderate democrat.  Specifically someone who got a decent NRA rating.  It never occurred to Obama and those left wing whackjobs that the only chance they had of winning, especially with Obama having one of the worst NRA ratings, was to pick someone who didn't. 

McCain doesn't have a perfect NRA rating, but still good.  With Palin under his belt (bad metaphor?), all he has to do now is even remotely lean on the NRA. 


McCain will crush obama.  It will be hilarious.

[Elfie]

She's also very pro GA.

Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is *GA*?

[culero]

Forgive my ignorance on this, but what is *GA*?

General Aviation - private planes and pilots.