A36 Apache!

[glock89]

If we get it perk it high.

[Motherland]

80-100 perks? Wouldn't it be worse in every possible way than the F4U1-C?

[Chalenge]

However, in practice it wasn't very reliable. The dive flaps (top/bottom of wings' center spar) were unreliable and sometimes wired shut in the field so they didn't pop out at the wrong time (so I've read).

This is urban legend and completely false. Like I said somewhere else in this thread the A36 flew 23300 sorties during the war. In all those sorties the loss of aircraft was something like 130 sorties for every loss so I welcome you to compare that to the Spitfire or Hurricane (for instance) and you will see it was very successful. The A36 was not redundant but they went in the direction of developing the P51 as a high altitude escort and fighter aircraft which they needed badly. The P47 was a bit more rugged and so they were given ground attack missions more often then P51s which suffered from ground damage more easily.

Perking this plane would be ridiculous.

[glock89]

This is urban legend and completely false. Like I said somewhere else in this thread the A36 flew 23300 sorties during the war. In all those sorties the loss of aircraft was something like 130 sorties for every loss so I welcome you to compare that to the Spitfire or Hurricane (for instance) and you will see it was very successful. The A36 was not redundant but they went in the direction of developing the P51 as a high altitude escort and fighter aircraft which they needed badly. The P47 was a bit more rugged and so they were given ground attack missions more often then P51s which suffered from ground damage more easily.

Perking this plane would be ridiculous.

So just use a P-47 or P-51.

[Krusty]

The A-36 wasn't also sent into the meat grinder during the battle of britain. It was a low alt ground pounder. Despite getting some kills it was NOT used as a primary fighter.

Look at the Mosquito also. NOT a primary fighter, still has a very high kill/death ratio. Why? Because it wasn't engaging the enemy on even footing and wasn't really tested as a true fighter.

Oh, and from what I've read the A-36 may have been used for ground attack, but WITH the flaps wired shut. They did normal dive bombing, without the dive flaps.


P.S. I wasn't saying perk the A-36.

[glock89]

The A-36 wasn't also sent into the meat grinder during the battle of britain. It was a low alt ground pounder. Despite getting some kills it was NOT used as a primary fighter.

Look at the Mosquito also. NOT a primary fighter, still has a very high kill/death ratio. Why? Because it wasn't engaging the enemy on even footing and wasn't really tested as a true fighter.

Oh, and from what I've read the A-36 may have been used for ground attack, but WITH the flaps wired shut. They did normal dive bombing, without the dive flaps.


P.S. I wasn't saying perk the A-36.

He-111.

[Chalenge]

Oh, and from what I've read the A-36 may have been used for ground attack, but WITH the flaps wired shut. They did normal dive bombing, without the dive flaps.

Like I said the 'wired shut' part is urban legend as I am sure Widewing will verify. This plane was very stable in dive bombing and the dive brakes were a terror weapon upon itself (the sound of an A36 diving on troops caused pandemonium like nothing ever seen even without bombs). I read a story from one of the pilots that flew these in Africa and later Italy. I wish I could recall the title (I will look for the book) but it had many stories from different aspects of the war (AVG in China USAAF in Africa Bong and McGuire in the Pacific Foss also) and he (the A36 pilot) vehemently denied air brakes ever having been wired shut. He did point out that the A36 was referred to as the Invader by the pilots that flew her because they were always invading somewhere.

The A36 came too late for the BoB but it did fight the Luftwaffe and from what I have read held its own against 109s (if any other fighters were discussed I have forgotten).

[Chalenge]

According to 'Mustang Aces of the Ninth & Fifteenth Air Forces & the RAF' in the chapter 'American Stuka' the A36 had training difficulties stateside and many young men lost their lives in training accidents. Once in action the squadrons worked hard to perfect attack procedures that would lead to success and they came up with a 90 degree attack from 8000 feet above the target and they would attack in groups with 150 feet seperation and up to 20 diving at the same time (no wonder AAA could hit them in groups like that). According to witnesses (as stated in the book you cant tell if they are American or German) the Stuka had nothing on the A36 and the scream they made as a squadron was nothing short of incredible!

Obviously this type of attack would be very accurate and devastating and probably because the planes were easier to hit with dive brakes out it would be more appropriate in AAA situations to stay faster by keeping them in. I have never read of a failure of any type so 'wiring shut' would not be required.

Also the Allison engine was equipped with a single stage supercharger and not the two-stage supercharger of the Merlin engines. It was not 'excellent' above 20k like the later Mustangs but that doesnt mean it suffered much.

[Pannono]

If it aint broke, dont fix it!
P-51B with 2x 500s will do the same exact thing

[Chalenge]

If it aint broke, dont fix it!
P-51B with 2x 500s will do the same exact thing

Skeered aint ya?  A36 below 12k would trash your favorite plane wouldnt it? 

Seriously though its not the exact same thing because the dive brakes would make dropping bombs much more accurate.

[Krusty]

Not much. Frankly the A-36 isn't that great a plane. I like the idea of it in-game, though.

I think the success of the A-36 has been exaggerated in the book you read chalenge.

I also doubt it "held its own against the luftwaffe" -- the way that is phrased makes it seem on par with spitfires, p51s and p38s (etc). They were chewed up by Ki-43/44s in CBI a few times. I don't think the cream of the crop of 190 and 109 pilots would find it much trouble.



P.S. Didn't one rip both wings off trying to pull out of a 450mph dive? (hint yes I checked wiki for that one -- the wiki article is self-contradicting and jumbled, though, edited too many times I suspect)

[Chalenge]

Mustangs ripped wings throughout the service history from what I have read over the years. The reason it was worded that way is that dogfighting the luftwaffe was not the primary role of the A36 and yet it did very well against the 190s and 109s it came across (thats also in the book although they dont list service records of kills/losses).  This story does say the first ace was a member of teh 27th BG 522nd FBS. He scored kills on a 190 Ju52 and Storch in Tunisia and then another 190 and a 109G over Italy (109 pilot pulled up to bail out but became tangled in the tail of the plane and spun down with his plane) for a total of five kills.

They must have been successful aircraft because even when the P47 was available they lowered the squadron count comprising the groups of A36s rather then change mission priorities or aircraft types (from four 20 plane squadrons to three squadrons per group).

[red26]

the A-36 had six .50 cals 2 in each wing and 2 in the nose. And most of the pilots wired the dive flaps back.

[Krusty]

Chalenge, apparently there was only 1 A-36 ace amongst the 500 airframes that saw service. They can't have had THAT much success against the LW, if only one of them got to 5 kills.

EDIT: Also the P-47 wasn't a ground pounder. It was a fighter. The early versions could carry almost no ord, and more often were using the 1 hardpoint for a drop tank than for a bomb. They would not take out a ground attack plane for a fighter and expect the same result, so your comment about not taking the A-36 out doesn't work

[red26]

Dive brakes in the wings gave the A-36A greater stability in a dive; however, a myth has arisen that they were they were useless due to malfunctions or because of the danger of deploying them and that they should be wired closed.[14] Capt. Charles E. Dills, 27th Fighter Bomber Group, 522nd Squadron, XIIth Air Force emphatically stated in a postwar interview: "I flew the A-36 for 39 of my 94 missions, from 11/43 to 3/44. They were never wired shut in Italy in combat. This 'wired shut' story apparently came from the training group at Harding Field, Baton Rouge, LA."

sorry ny bad. <S>