Author Topic: Christianity, is it  (Read 4008 times)

Offline potsNpans

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #150 on: September 09, 2008, 05:29:57 PM »
OK, let me be clear here, do you think orthodox christians believe people that refute jesus will burn in hell?
If I might say toss out orthodox label, but if your looking for the biblical answer to those who deny Jesus as their savior to be more specific. Hell is the only thing for them.

Offline potsNpans

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #151 on: September 09, 2008, 05:36:34 PM »
Hey Skyrock what specifically from Christian doctrine do you equate with astrology?

Offline lambo31

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2008, 05:45:31 PM »
OK, let me be clear here, do you think orthodox christians believe people that refute jesus will burn in hell?

SkyRock,

 I can only tell you what Jesus say's concerning getting into Heaven. I can also tell you I believe the Bible completely to be true.

John 5:24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.



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Offline E25280

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #153 on: September 09, 2008, 05:46:20 PM »
Not to sure about that one, my sister and her family have been practicing Jehovah Witnesses for over 10 years now and I've gone with her several times to the Kingdom Hall and I don't remember her ever saying that you still goto heaven even if you don't believe in God or Jesus. 
That wasn't the question.  Paraphrasing what I understood to be Skyrock's questions:

1.  Will you "burn in Hell" as Christiandom defines it if you deny God.  No, because Skyrock's frame of reference is an "eternal torment" type of Hell.  JW believe in a merciful and loving God, not one of vengeance.  They would point out that "Hell" is the English equivalent of "Hades" or "Sheol", which is the common grave of mankind, not a place of torment.  Therefore, being thrown into the Lake of Fire means utter destruction, and not eternal torment.

2.  That not believing Jesus is the Son of God would buy you said defined Hell.  Already mostly answered in #1, but in addition, the Bible refers in Revelation to the the Resurrection of "the righteous and the unrighteous."  Those who were "unrighteous" will be given another chance to accept God's authority over mankind, with Jesus at the head of the Kingdom.  Those who accept it will be given everlasting life.  Those who reject it will be given the second death / oblivion.

This is how they differ in major ways from the majority of Christiandom.  They find no Bible basis for a Trinity, do not accept the concept of Hell as a place of everlasting torment, and do not believe your "soul goes to Heaven" when you die, but rather you lie asleep in death until the time of the Resurrection.

Which is why I find your claim to have family who are practicing Jehovah's Witnesses to be a bit puzzling -- if you do, then you should know that they do not look for a Heavenly existence at all, but rather the prospect of everlasting life on a paradise Earth.
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Offline Shuckins

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #154 on: September 09, 2008, 05:50:48 PM »
SD67, I actually have read my history and have a couple of degrees in that field.  There were no "conquering Christians" in Britain.  The power of the Druids in western Europe and Britain was destroyed in a process begun during the time of the Roman Republic and finished while Christians were still being persecuted in the Colisseum.  The Caesars destroyed the Druids.

The pagans of northern Europe, mainly of ancient germanic culture, were also either destroyed by the Romans or, as in the case of the Visigoths, conquered Rome itself.  Many of these tribes migrated into the Empire seeking a haven from the ravages of the Huns.  The wars between the Empire and these pagans has never been portrayed by historians as a "religious struggle."

The Byzantine Empire lived in relative peace with the peoples of the Middle East until the rise of militant Islam.  The Byzantines were a bulwark against the intrusion of the muslims into Europe.  After winning the Battle of Manzikert, the Turks closed the pilgrim roads to Palestine and repressed the Christian Armenians. The population of the Armenian capital of Ani was savagely massacred.  

Four hundred years earlier, during the intial surge of militant Islam during the time of Muhammad, the Arabs had annihilated the Christian parts of Syria, Egypt, and North Africa, which had had a very prosperous past.  The destruction of the great Christian basilicas in ALexandria, Hippo, Antioch, and Jerusalem date from this time of conquest.  

The lot of the Christians who did not flee varied in different places and times;  sometimes agreements between rulers such as Charlemagne and the Caliph Harun al-Rashid, made it easier and more pleasant.  At other times these agreements were flouted in the cruellest and most deplorable way, as when the Caliph Hakim, at the beginning of the eleventh century for no apparent reason ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and began to harry and massacre Christians and Jews everywhere.  (Source:  The Crusades, by Regine Pernoud.)

By contrast, the "Christian conquest" of Europe was far more peaceful, if not perfectly so.

It was only after the Battle of Manzikert that the Byzantines, fearing the renewal of the Muslim onslaught, appealed to the Christian kingdoms of the west for aid.  Revisionist history notwithstanding, the Crusades that resulted were not an unprovoked attack against a peaceful and enlightened Muslim society.  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 05:54:16 PM by Shuckins »

Offline SirLoin

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #155 on: September 09, 2008, 06:00:25 PM »
Christianity says "Love your enemy..Hate their sins."

Well i don't love my enemies..I hate them.Don't be loving my enemies either.Go find your own to love.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:02:08 PM by SirLoin »
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Offline vorticon

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #156 on: September 09, 2008, 06:14:46 PM »
just give them your gold, they'll save your soul  ;)

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #157 on: September 09, 2008, 06:18:49 PM »
Infant Damnation.

Fundamentalist Christians are fond of quoting John 3:5 which states Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This raises the question of infants who, whilst not aborted, have not been baptized. For outsiders, especially those who have held a new born infant in their arms, it seems a trifle harsh that their souls are condemned to eternal damnation simply because their parents are godless commies.


Why would a rational God expect his believers to pick the ONE true religion by faith? Next, when it comes to the disgusting behavior of many of the alleged 'holy men' of the various faiths, historically and in the present tense, I'm confident that I've been relived of any intellectual obligation to take the stuff seriously. No amount of sanctimonious rationalization can make such disgusting behavior anything but pathological.

Lastly, I'm dubious about the existence of God in the traditional sense as commonly expounded by the organized faiths.. however, I do not 'disbelieve' as a faith in itself.. That's an atheist. As an agnostic, and raised in the christian faith, I remain respectful of the comfort and guidance given by the teachings of Christianity to my fellow walkers on this path I'm on; and don't think less of them for their indulgence in the comfort their beliefs provide them in their times of need. There's plenty of stuff that happens on this planet that defies explanation... however, I'm reluctant to attribute these things to God based on the authority of the Church's say-so alone.

As I said before.. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:20:36 PM by Hangtime »
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #158 on: September 09, 2008, 06:48:01 PM »
Hey Skyrock what specifically from Christian doctrine do you equate with astrology?
Well, back in the day, I had a friend who used to tell me that old egyption sun worship morphed into what we now know as christianity.  He could never explain it to me thoroughly enough for my satisfaction.

 Here recently, I was turned on to zeitgeist which explains much better than I could.

part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw

part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg

part three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg

That this is a very controversial piece should go without saying.  It a "no holds barred", in your face movie if you are a christian, you won't like it.

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Offline Xargos

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #159 on: September 09, 2008, 06:58:27 PM »
Jeffery R."Xargos" Ward

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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #160 on: September 09, 2008, 07:10:26 PM »

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Xargos

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #161 on: September 09, 2008, 07:15:33 PM »
:aok

It doesn't change the fact that I believe in a Supreme God.  It only helps show how The Church tries to hide the foundation of its existence.

P.S.  When Jesus died the Temple curtain tore to show that man no longer needed to go through a temple/church to speak with God.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 07:27:09 PM by Xargos »
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #162 on: September 09, 2008, 07:17:51 PM »
Quote
No, YOUR  church didn't come into existence before some nutters in the middle east nailed some bloke to a tree 2000 years ago for saying how cool it would be if everyone was nice to each other. Not much else has changed there yet

My statement stands, this thread isn't about religions other than Christianity.
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Offline vorticon

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #163 on: September 09, 2008, 07:19:38 PM »

Offline JAGED

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Re: Christianity, is it
« Reply #164 on: September 09, 2008, 07:22:07 PM »
Jaged, I think your link is bunk.  the only link on this topic that counts is the bible.  why do you continue to try and bring it into an "internet link" type of argument. 

If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ.  I am in no way an expert on religous branches, but I was a christian at one time.  I have never heard of a christian religion that didn't believe a person would go to hell if they did not believe jesus was the son of God.  Prove me wrong, please.

Ok SkyRock, you asked for it and here it is.  This link is from the official Greek Orthodox Church website.  If you think this link is "bunk" then I can be of no more assistance.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8089.asp

There's a lot of reading there, but here are some of the highlights:

"The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."

"Orthodox emphasis on the creation of the human person in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) means that the personhood of each human being is indelibly imprinted with God's image. And it follows that, carrying God's image, each person has access to revelation and salvation.[7] God is ever present - at all times, in all places and in all things. He did not create man to abandon him but to guide him to redemption, to perfection. God's purpose is the salvation and glorification of man."

"It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety and according to natural law by the God who "is love" -1 John 4:8-, In his justice and mercy God will judge them worthy even though they are outside the true Church."



So, there you have it...  Can you say pwned, or are you going to claim a bunk link again?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 07:24:30 PM by JAGED »
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