Author Topic: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"  (Read 4859 times)

Offline Elfie

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2008, 04:39:03 PM »
If RAAF gets the F-35, avoid VISUAL RANGE and DOGFIGHT at all costs.



Why avoid the dogfight? It's supposed to be more nimble than an F-16.
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Offline mg1942

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2008, 04:52:49 PM »
Why avoid the dogfight? It's supposed to be more nimble than an F-16.

And Sukhois with 3D vectoring thrust + helmet off-boresight to steer missiles already eat F-16s/15s in 3-course meals (in simulations of course, given equal pilot skills).


Offline mg1942

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2008, 04:56:28 PM »
Su-30 vs RAAF Alternatives

Many visitors will be asking the obvious question of how the Sukhois stack up against the F/A-18A HUG, the JSF panacea and recently proposed interim fighters such as the F/A-18E/F.

Against all three types the Su-30 derivatives, especially with later engine subtypes, will always have a significant kinematic advantage - there is no substitute for thrust in the kinematic performance game. There is another factor to consider here, which is the superlative 10 tonnes of internal drag free fuel the Sukhoi carries. When not operating at extended combat radii, the Sukhoi driver has more fuel to convert into energy, and that energy can nearly always be used to an advantage.

With mutually competitive WVR missiles and Helmet Mounted Sights/Displays for close-in combat, all three types will live or die in a close in engagement with an advanced Su-30MK variant by pilot ability and good or bad luck. The Sukhoi combines high alpha manoeuvre capabilities with excellent thrust/weight performance, and is apt to have an energy advantage entering and prosecuting a close in fight. A JSF driver opting to engage a thrust vectoring late model Su-30MK in a knife fight may not survive to speak of the experience, unless the Sukhoi driver is unable to exploit his advantage properly.

In close in air combat terms the JSF qualifies as 'double inferior' against the later model Sukhois, since the Sukhois have an advantage in both thrust/weight ratio and in wing loading (interested visitors refer R.L. Shaw's Fighter Combat), and with its canard and thrust vectoring capability will generally be able to gain a firing solution quicker. Because the JSF is designed within the kinematic performance class of the F/A-18 and F-16, it is right in the middle of the performance envelope of aircraft the Sukhoi was designed to kill.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

Offline SD67

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2008, 05:03:37 PM »
My credentials? :lol
In a word, no. I'm not basing my opinion off one simulation report either.
I do do a lot of reading both on and off the internet about what our Government is and is not doing with regard to our defense forces.
I do have a family member who holds a ranking position in the RAAF who I have regular discussions with on topics along these lines. ( He does know when to draw the line regarding things he will talk about though :cry )
I have designed and analysed aircraft strictly as a hobby for 6 years and I have helped build three and and currently building one myself.
I participate in some quite animated discussions with others who work in the aerospace industry about aircraft performance.
I do not claim to be an expert, but from what I've read and what I've heard coming from "inside the circle" so to speak, this is NOT the right choice to replace our F18's with.
I also find it highly irregular that someone flying an exercise for the point of demonstrating aircraft performance to a potential customer would be thrown. People buying something like this generally do not want to see it getting convincingly beaten by the aircraft they will likely be using it against.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 05:06:50 PM by SD67 »
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Offline Elfie

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2008, 05:04:11 PM »
And Sukhois with 3D vectoring thrust + helmet off-boresight to steer missiles already eat F-16s/15s in 3-course meals (in simulations of course, given equal pilot skills).



Every aircraft has advantages and disadvantages, good pilots exploit their enemies weaknesses while utilizing their own strengths.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2008, 05:42:24 PM »
Why avoid the dogfight? It's supposed to be more nimble than an F-16.

Why would you even want to "dogfight" in the first place? Why would you want to give an enemy anywhere near equal advantage. Thats the reason we build AWACs and advanced stealth Jets in the first place.

I was in a hurry this morning and had to rush my posts cause I had to leave for work. I dont really want to get back into this unless the discussion gets technical. This entire "bash the F-35" crusade is a creation of "Air Power Australia" and a guy named Carlo Kopp who himself has a financial interest in maintaining and lengthening the service of existing RAAF F-111s and thats why hes been on this crusade to keep the 111's and get America to sell the F-22s. Even tho both the Political and Air Force leaders of Australia have repeatedly said they can neither afford, nor do they need, that option.

The military leaders of Australia consider this guy a nitwit but he writes a good article, scams about what an expert he is, and is pretty good at skewing data to support his own stances.

So Im not interested in another bi-yearly "Waa,Waa we want the F-22 cause the F-35 sucks" thread. Unless someone can introduce hard data then the entire thing is silly. What possible reason would an Aussia believe a guy whos never even been in the service before they would believe their top RAAF people? And what possible reason would your elected leaders, and air force experts, have for wanting the F-35 if they didnt believe its the right choice?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2008, 05:47:23 PM »
Why would you even want to "dogfight" in the first place? Why would you want to give an enemy anywhere near equal advantage. Thats the reason we build AWACs and advanced stealth Jets in the first place.
the need for the ability to dogfight will come from the aircraft that get past our BVR weapons....and quite a few will.
i might be wrong, but i say just keep building the FA18's, toss in a few F22's, and we'll hammer any and all comers in the air.


I was in a hurry this morning and had to rush my posts cause I had to leave for work. I dont really want to get back into this unless the discussion gets technical. This entire "bash the F-35" crusade is a creation of "Air Power Australia" and a guy named Carlo Kopp who himself has a financial interest in maintaining and lengthening the service of existing RAAF F-111s and thats why hes been on this crusade to keep the 111's and get America to sell the F-22s. Even tho both the Political and Air Force leaders of Australia have repeatedly said they can neither afford, nor do they need, that option.

The military leaders of Australia consider this guy a nitwit but he writes a good article, scams about what an expert he is, and is pretty good at skewing data to support his own stances.

So Im not interested in another bi-yearly "Waa,Waa we want the F-22 cause the F-35 sucks" thread. Unless someone can introduce hard data then the entire thing is silly. What possible reason would an Aussia believe a guy whos never even been in the service before they would believe their top RAAF people? And what possible reason would your elected leaders, and air force experts, have for wanting the F-35 if they didnt believe its the right choice?
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2008, 05:53:00 PM »
Dr. Carlo Kopp is a very smart guy who is well versed in fighter aircraft. It doesn't mean he's correct or incorrect, it just means his arguments should be carefully considered.
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Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2008, 05:53:46 PM »
The F-35 is indeed a bad idea. It's supposed to replace our F-111's and F/A-18 HUG (and soon to be F/A-18E super hornet) but the F-35 costs too much and trucks very little not very far.
It'll waste our Wedgetail AEW&C (whenever Boeing gets around to delivering them) and suck up the capacity of the new KC-30B's.
We should've taken the money we're wasting on 24 F/A-18E and tried to get the same deal the Koreans got on new F-15's. Even with an acquisition of six EA-18G where still leaving ourselves short legged.
Theres no likelyhood we'd even be able to acquire F-22's, and the current F-22 still can't give the bomb truck we're losing by retiring the F-111 early but it still light years ahead of the F-35 in capability, range and survivability.
The RAAF should be a mix of a upgraded F-15E variant (F-15K, SG etc), and the F-111's until a later block of the F-35, or the question of the F-22 can be better answered.
 
 Tronsky

F-35 has much more range than the Super Hornet.  Range is still a hugely important factor in air combat.

Offline Elfie

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2008, 05:55:16 PM »
Quote
Why would you even want to "dogfight" in the first place? Why would you want to give an enemy anywhere near equal advantage. Thats the reason we build AWACs and advanced stealth Jets in the first place.

I guess technically, it is preferable to kill the other guy before it ever gets to a dogfight. I should have been more clear in my original post......I was thinking along the lines of avoiding at all costs. As I said in a later post each aircraft has it strengths and weaknesses.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline trax1

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2008, 07:33:16 PM »
I was in a hurry this morning and had to rush my posts cause I had to leave for work. I dont really want to get back into this unless the discussion gets technical. This entire "bash the F-35" crusade is a creation of "Air Power Australia" and a guy named Carlo Kopp who himself has a financial interest in maintaining and lengthening the service of existing RAAF F-111s and thats why hes been on this crusade to keep the 111's and get America to sell the F-22s. Even tho both the Political and Air Force leaders of Australia have repeatedly said they can neither afford, nor do they need, that option.

The military leaders of Australia consider this guy a nitwit but he writes a good article, scams about what an expert he is, and is pretty good at skewing data to support his own stances.

So Im not interested in another bi-yearly "Waa,Waa we want the F-22 cause the F-35 sucks" thread. Unless someone can introduce hard data then the entire thing is silly. What possible reason would an Aussia believe a guy whos never even been in the service before they would believe their top RAAF people? And what possible reason would your elected leaders, and air force experts, have for wanting the F-35 if they didnt believe its the right choice?
Well that makes sense and explains that article, I had a hard time believing that the F-35 could do as poorly as that article said it did.  The F-35 is a generation 5 fighter and I doubt that anything other then another gen 5 fighter could defeat it.
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Offline Warspawn

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2008, 10:08:15 PM »
You do know that the F-35 incorporates a Helmet-Mounted display to enable "look-see" targeting and off-axis engagement abilities, aye?



Thrust vectoring and traditional "get on the bad guy's six" aren't as important when the enemy pilot just has to turn his head in order to engage the enemy with weapons.  It's all about who sees who first in the combat environment.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 10:09:49 PM by Warspawn »
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Offline -tronski-

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2008, 10:56:32 PM »
Why would you even want to "dogfight" in the first place? Why would you want to give an enemy anywhere near equal advantage. Thats the reason we build AWACs and advanced stealth Jets in the first place.

So Im not interested in another bi-yearly "Waa,Waa we want the F-22 cause the F-35 sucks" thread. Unless someone can introduce hard data then the entire thing is silly. What possible reason would an Aussia believe a guy whos never even been in the service before they would believe their top RAAF people? And what possible reason would your elected leaders, and air force experts, have for wanting the F-35 if they didnt believe its the right choice?

People are upset because they see participation in the F-35 project was a purely political decision. Just as the reason to go for the Super Hornet was a purely political decision.
The heads at the RAAF, and the then govt. threw out the proper selection process and decided for both based on the desire to strengthen relations with the Bush administration instead of properly assessing alternatives for our own needs.
If its true that AESA upgraded Sukois are going to able to detect and fire on the "sort of stealthy" F-35's before they even get into missle range especially if our neighbours get those new AEW&C killers - how is this a good thing?

F-22's can defeat them, but that doesn't help us if there aren't any around.

F-35 has much more range than the Super Hornet.  Range is still a hugely important factor in air combat.

Agreed, for the RAAF range is everything and thats also why I also think the Super Hornet is a mistake.

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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2008, 11:35:03 PM »
Tronski, weren't these mainly for an interceptor role? Or is the requirement the ability to hit targets' in Mainland Asia from Fields in Northern Australia?

Offline SD67

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Re: JSF "clubbed like baby seals"
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2008, 12:07:42 AM »
The RAAF needs an aircraft that can perform in both roles.
Now we are losing our F111's we have no long range bombing capability.
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