Author Topic: So the P-51 should have a converg of  (Read 1426 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2008, 04:41:51 PM »
If you're shooting outside of 400 yards, you don't really have a shot.

800 yards -- about 30 rounds fired... engine 1 and headshot...



Its all about knowing the plane and programming that 'muscle memory.' I will agree with you that at 800 yards from astern you are wasting your time shooting.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2008, 04:57:56 PM »
The exception that proves the rule. I've nailed planes just as far with just as few rounds (I once hispano sniped somebody outside of 800 yards with 2 bursts, and got his wing), but these are not the norm. They are so exceptional and easily remembered because most times when you take shots like that you don't do anything.

I still maintain: Set the convergence to the range you get kills, not the range you want to vainly shoot at escaping targets.

Offline lyric1

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2008, 06:34:55 PM »
800 yards -- about 30 rounds fired... engine 1 and headshot...



Its all about knowing the plane and programming that 'muscle memory.' I will agree with you that at 800 yards from astern you are wasting your time shooting.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2008, 06:52:51 PM »
I leave mine set for 275.  

When the Icon counter flips from D400 to D200, your actual range is 299yds.  So when I see the counter switch to D200, I finalize my aim and fire, which means I'm about as close to hitting the enemy plane at my convergence distance as possible, maximizing the damage my F4U's .50's will inflict.

Quick shots at that range are really all you need to cut a plane in half or saw a wing off.  A little tickle performs like a chainsaw.

I'll fire at planes as far as D600 at times (to get them to turn), but I don't get serious until he gets to D200.  At close range your bullets do more damage, the target appears larger, and your required lead is less.  It makes it easier to hit and kill.

Those are important considerations when you realize that unless you're wings are level, and you're flying level at 1G, your gunsight is "off".  If you're pointing your nose up or down, you'll shoot "high", banked left you'll shoot low/left (which may appear high/left from your perspective), banked right you'll shoot low/right, and inverted you'll shoot quite low (which will appear quite high from your perspective).  Pulling G's while firing adds more deviation.

Setting your convergence closer and firing closer will also minimize some of those effects, where setting your convergence further out and firing further out will increase some of those effects.

Your bullets will also "cease to exist" in AH at varying distances, depending on altitude.  Your bullets "cease to exist" at closer ranges the lower you are, and will "exist" longer (fly further) at higher altitude.  If I remember correctly, it is flat-out impossible to hit a target on the deck at 1000yds (900?)(because your bullets no longer exist), but you will still punch holes through the target at 1200 (or more) yards at 8K or so.  That's really just some interesting trivia, more than anything helpful...

You can test these ideas using the .target command.  Keep in mind that "groups" fired at this target will look better than they really are.  The rings are 10 feet apart, which means that the center ring is 20 feet in diameter.  So a group that patterns in the bottom of the "bullseye" or "10" ring is actually 8-10 feet low, and could be printing an area the size of your living room wall.  Hardly a "tight" group, that will do maximum damage with bullets that simply punch holes in things (like .50's).  Putting your shots in the "8" ring? WTG! You're 30 feet off!  Hehe!  On a target that isn't even moving...

If you hit the bottom of the 10 ring, that's like shooting 5 feet under the plane in front of you (with him on autopilot, hehe!)  (Look at the picture in Shatzi's "Convergence" article on the Trainers page)

A good testing technique I found was to point at the target on "Auto-level", and fire when my speed was up to normal.  Use trim to fine tune your aim.  At first it will probably appear that all your shots are "good", until you zoom in on it and take into account the scale/size of the target.  If you want to fire inverted, I needed to manually trim my plane to get decent fairly accurate results.  And getting accurate "banked" shots is tough too (to see the effect of banking on aim-point).  Using opposite rudder to hold "knife-edge" actually skews your results...

You can also see the results of firing while pulling G's using that target.

MtnMan

Wonder what the average hit% is in the MA...  Gunnery is more complicated than most realize.
MtnMan

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Offline RoGenT

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2008, 06:57:54 PM »
Looks like this one was well covered already. I personally have my guns at 200; Being that I'll try to get into turn fights with better turning planes such as Spits, I set them like that for quick snap shots. I actually have more difficult time Boom and Zooming with that close of range (so that is why i miss  sometimes normally easy b/z shots) but if it turns into turn fight, I have better chance. That and I can't hit D400 too good anyway  :D
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Offline A8TOOL

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2008, 08:45:50 PM »
Test of P-51 D using the .target command offline.

I set all guns at 325 then tried 425. I went from 200 out to 500 out for the 325 converg but did not risk target reset by adding the 500 to the 425 converge.

It seemed the closer was better.

My test is not exact as i did rush it a bit but you will notice that at 425 the bullets were consistently cylindrical in shape while 325 was more linear and concentrated.

Last I shot from 100 above and below the plane so you could see how big the tartget really is and where the bullets would hit at that distance.


Using an F4U i received different results and like them at 375-400 staggered.







From top to bottom on the target i used the inside guns first then the outside then used both at the same time for the third tier down.....in case you were wondering.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 08:48:27 PM by A8TOOL »

Offline Lusche

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2008, 09:16:06 PM »
Wonder what the average hit% is in the MA...  



Arithmetic mean was ~ 3.5%

Zazen did a similar analysis a few years earlier with basically the same results.

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Offline uptown

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2008, 10:42:50 PM »
 :aok I'm a better shot then I thought  :D  14.4 hit% for tour 102, but 389 fighter rank. So why such crappy rank with such good hit % ?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 10:50:36 PM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis

Offline A8TOOL

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2008, 11:24:29 PM »
Uptown4 ,You flew 35 sorties and got 31 kills with only three deaths, Very good but it took you forever to get them. Your score says you fight scared when in fighter mode and pick from alt possibly taking on bombers only when there are others around to be used as bait.   Just a guess but i bet I'm right on. Another word for scared might be cautious or smart.

Offline Krusty

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2008, 01:39:20 AM »
MtnMan, I believe bullets "live" about 1.2k or so at low alt. With the thinner air up at alt, they travel further. I'm not sure if they have a "timer" or if they expire after passing below a hitting-power-threshhold or whatever. Note cannon rounds (especially larger cannons, 37mm for example) "live" longer. I have sniped B-17s at 25k in a yak9T at almost 2k range, and landed hits. Took a lot of trial and error and wasted a lot of my ammo but I popped one of the B-17s' wings off from outside range of their guns.

Offline Grayeagle

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2008, 01:50:36 AM »
Well .. as the great ones said .. fill your windscreen with the enemy . . fly close to your man ..then of course he will go down.

I set all my guns at 250 .. as has been said, now an then I will send some rounds out there to see if the guy will turn . . if he wont, I will work on a wing root with one set of guns (right or left wing, as the other wings guns will be off target entirely).

I've always found the better I shoot .. .the less I have to manuever -evil grin-
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Offline uptown

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2008, 06:34:38 AM »
Uptown4 ,You flew 35 sorties and got 31 kills with only three deaths, Very good but it took you forever to get them. Your score says you fight scared when in fighter mode and pick from alt possibly taking on bombers only when there are others around to be used as bait.   Just a guess but i bet I'm right on. Another word for scared might be cautious or smart.

well, that's pretty much sums it up  :lol :cry :salute
Lighten up Francis

Offline mtnman

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2008, 10:13:59 PM »
MtnMan, I believe bullets "live" about 1.2k or so at low alt. With the thinner air up at alt, they travel further. I'm not sure if they have a "timer" or if they expire after passing below a hitting-power-threshhold or whatever. Note cannon rounds (especially larger cannons, 37mm for example) "live" longer. I have sniped B-17s at 25k in a yak9T at almost 2k range, and landed hits. Took a lot of trial and error and wasted a lot of my ammo but I popped one of the B-17s' wings off from outside range of their guns.

I suppose different ammo may "live" longer.  In my most recent tests I was able to get hits on the dot target at 1050yds at 100ft ASL, 1110yds at 7500ft, and didn't feel like going any higher.  I wasn't able to get hits at ranges greater than those at those alts.  I started with the target further out (on auto-pilot) and brought it in in small increments (5-10 yds) until I could get a few marks on the paper.

I also took some screenshots to show the effect of firing at convergence vs beyond convergence.  Here's a picture of my plane super-imposed over the target, to show size relationship.


Here's a picture showing a 300yd shot at 300yd convergence, both with and without my plane in the picture.

http://www.mediafire.com/?laxjdl5xqex

http://www.mediafire.com/?alblai5l5ze

And a 600yd shot with convergence set to 300yd.  Note instead of a nice solid group, the pattern is divided into two points, which are also "looser", and in this case are also hitting 5-6ft low.  Even if you raise your point of aim, you'll still miss with far more bullets, (even if your aim is correct) due to the greater spread.  Also note that in-game performance will be less than these shots suggest, since you'll both be maneuvering.  Group size increases with range, even if you have your convergence set further out.  This will make hits more likely, but make catastrophic damage less likely (with bullets).  Hitting closer targets with closer convergence settings can drastically increase the amount/percentage of bullets hitting the target.  It gives the visual effect of hitting the target but not killing it, leading some to doubt the effectiveness of their bullets.

http://www.mediafire.com/?oxa5heeexwd

MtnMan
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:25:49 PM by mtnman »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2008, 10:15:22 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Arithmetic mean was ~ 3.5%

Zazen did a similar analysis a few years earlier with basically the same results.



Thank you sir! 
MtnMan

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Offline Krusty

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Re: So the P-51 should have a converg of
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2008, 11:44:25 PM »
MtnMan, with LOD distances you may land hits but be too far to see the hit sprites.