Author Topic: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.  (Read 760 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2008, 10:49:38 PM »
Frodo,

China needs land and resources. Check their operations in africa. Currently 700,000 chinese live there under different pretences.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2008, 11:55:30 PM »
Frodo,

China needs land and resources. Check their operations in africa. Currently 700,000 chinese live there under different pretences.

I guess that I'm trying to infer that they have a loftier goal than mere self-sufficiency...and that they are even willing to deprive themselves of their current standard of living, if they see an oppurtunity to take us out of superpower status.

I think that once we fall, we won't be able to get back on top before someone else takes the number one spot-And looking at how China's been doing these last few years, I believe that they could bounce back easier than we could.

I do know that their ever-growing industry and populace will consume more and more...That's why they were so quick to jump back in and get the contracts for the Iraqi Oilfields restarted. Because, of course, they want their oil.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2008, 01:06:23 AM »
I disagree, with respect.

The Chinese in the late 1960s are not the Chinese of today. They couldn't field a fleet of subs. The tech they bought from the Russians was crap. Many of the nukes would not have gotten off the launch pad, and probably not detonated had they made it across the Pacific.

They were in no mood to fight the US.

Today - much different story.



Really? What class of SSN, SSBN, and SLBM, do the Chinese currently have operational? Which ones do they have operational that can compare with USN Seawolf and Virginia class SSNs, Ohio class SSBNs, and the Trident-ll D5 SLBM?

Ill give you a hint. The answer is less then one. They dont have an operational SLBM system and they are two to three generations behind us in SSN development. While there are some reports they have successfully mirved a few of their DF-5 ICBMs its believed most, if not all, are single warhead capable. This is a volatile liquid fuel ICBM of a type that has to be actually fueled before it could be launched. So they have 24 nuclear weapons they can hit us with as long as we were nice enough to give them time to fuel them first and providing the 1960s design actually works.

A single USN Ohio class SLBM, of which we have 14, has the capability of launching 24 D5 SLBMs each of which has the capacity to deliver 10 independently targeted warheads that blow at 475 kt, "Hiroshima was 16 kt". They have a range of 7,000 miles and a CEP of 120 meters. In other words anyone of our 14 SSBNs is capable of delivering up to 240 warheads each one approx 30 times more powerful then the Hiroshima bomb and we can put each one in a baseball infield from 7,000 miles away. These SSBNs are so quiet and invincible even our own SSNs cant find them. They are black holes in the ocean.

The USA also has over 500 solid fueled Minuteman-lll ICBMs each one limited by SALT agreements to deliver one nuclear warhead in the 335 kt range with a CEP of about 350'. It has about the range of the SLBMs but its not quite as accurate. We cant put it in an infield and can only put it in a ballpark.

But it gets better. We have about 1,300 B-61 gravity nukes our Jabos can deliver and that blow at 350 kt. We have about another 550 of the same type thats designed for our bombers to drop. We have another 320 ,150 kt, warheads on the business end of Tomahawk cruise missiles. And lastly we have another 1,800 nukes of the same power that are delivered in air launched cruise missiles. Altogether America has about 10,000 nuclear weapons of which over 5,000 would be OTW to China with just one phone call.

Do the math. The Chinese would much prefer to shoot their own 24 nukes at themselves, "and who knows how many actually work", then they would shoot them at America. At least that way theres a chance some small part of their society would survive.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Mr No Name

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 01:14:20 AM »
If the Chinese call in the bonds, we have to pay them in dollars. We don't have the money. We have to get the US treasury to print it. Dollar dives, inflation soars. We become Israel in the 1950s, Weimar Germany in the late 1920s. A whopper junior will cost 8 bucks. The minimum wage will stay the same as it is today. Depression = on.

China is sitting on $500B in dollars already. They lose. What can they buy for that money? US businesses. US real estate.

It's like playing a game of Civilization. They don't go to war with us. They simply buy us out.

I say we sell them Texas first.








I say we should donate them a large portion of our nuclear arsenal... all at once.
Vote R.E. Lee '24

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2008, 01:26:20 AM »
Really? What class of SSN, SSBN, and SLBM, do the Chinese currently have operational? Which ones do they have operational that can compare with USN Seawolf and Virginia class SSNs, Ohio class SSBNs, and the Trident-ll D5 SLBM?

Ill give you a hint. The answer is less then one. They dont have an operational SLBM system and they are two to three generations behind us in SSN development. While there are some reports they have successfully mirved a few of their DF-5 ICBMs its believed most, if not all, are single warhead capable. This is a volatile liquid fuel ICBM of a type that has to be actually fueled before it could be launched. So they have 24 nuclear weapons they can hit us with as long as we were nice enough to give them time to fuel them first and providing the 1960s design actually works.

A single USN Ohio class SLBM, of which we have 14, has the capability of launching 24 D5 SLBMs each of which has the capacity to deliver 10 independently targeted warheads that blow at 475 kt, "Hiroshima was 16 kt". They have a range of 7,000 miles and a CEP of 120 meters. In other words anyone of our 14 SSBNs is capable of delivering up to 240 warheads each one approx 30 times more powerful then the Hiroshima bomb and we can put each one in a baseball infield from 7,000 miles away. These SSBNs are so quiet and invincible even our own SSNs cant find them. They are black holes in the ocean.

The USA also has over 500 solid fueled Minuteman-lll ICBMs each one limited by SALT agreements to deliver one nuclear warhead in the 335 kt range with a CEP of about 350'. It has about the range of the SLBMs but its not quite as accurate. We cant put it in an infield and can only put it in a ballpark.

But it gets better. We have about 1,300 B-61 gravity nukes our Jabos can deliver and that blow at 350 kt. We have about another 550 of the same type thats designed for our bombers to drop. We have another 320 ,150 kt, warheads on the business end of Tomahawk cruise missiles. And lastly we have another 1,800 nukes of the same power that are delivered in air launched cruise missiles. Altogether America has about 10,000 nuclear weapons of which over 5,000 would be OTW to China with just one phone call.

Do the math. The Chinese would much prefer to shoot their own 24 nukes at themselves, "and who knows how many actually work", then they would shoot them at America. At least that way theres a chance some small part of their society would survive.

arrrr! damn wog navy amounts to a one legged chinaman with an eyepatch in a rowboat with a molting parrot...

arrrr!  ;)

ummm... there are those pesky kilo's they keep surfacing in the middle of our battle groups...

but... ARRRRRRRR!!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 10:11:40 AM »
The Chinese would probably supply the Pakistani's, (since they are a client state anyway) and fight any war with us by proxy. The question in my mind is if the Pakistani's would employ any of their nuclear devices. I don't really think that they would, especially if the fighting was on their own turf...However, one might "dissapear" into the nether regions' of the terrorist world.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2008, 10:47:54 AM »
arrrr! damn wog navy amounts to a one legged chinaman with an eyepatch in a rowboat with a molting parrot...

arrrr!  ;)

ummm... there are those pesky kilo's they keep surfacing in the middle of our battle groups...

but... ARRRRRRRR!!

Were averaging about what? 10 or 20 Kilos a day popping up in the middle of CV groups?

That would be funny wouldn't it? Especially considering the CVNs are 3 times faster then the Kilos. Its not a bad package the Russians delivered for the PLAN, far better then they themselves could make, but Diesel SSKs are not a real good fit for the vastness of The Pacific Ocean. They are slow, have limited endurance, and a limited weapons load.
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The Chinese would probably supply the Pakistani's, (since they are a client state anyway) and fight any war with us by proxy. The question in my mind is if the Pakistani's would employ any of their nuclear devices. I don't really think that they would, especially if the fighting was on their own turf...However, one might "dissapear" into the nether regions' of the terrorist world.

Proxy or any other way we would be really, really, pissed off and come looking for answers. In no way whatsoever could the Chinese afford the possibility of such a conflict with America.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2008, 11:03:41 AM »
The kilo's fit the chinese 'brown water' aspirations for Taiwan.. and actually forced us to stop patrolling the Formosa straight. They are a hideous problem for our force projection into the western pacific. The bastards know where we gotta go, stake the place out and wait like gawdamed VC in spider holes...

The Kilos are a problem. It's a cheap trade for them.. 1 CV for 1 kilo... they'd leap at that chance.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2008, 12:01:02 PM »
The kilo's fit the chinese 'brown water' aspirations for Taiwan.. and actually forced us to stop patrolling the Formosa straight. They are a hideous problem for our force projection into the western pacific. The bastards know where we gotta go, stake the place out and wait like gawdamed VC in spider holes...

The Kilos are a problem. It's a cheap trade for them.. 1 CV for 1 kilo... they'd leap at that chance.

Remind me again why "we have to" go into the Formosa straight?

Then remind me again where all those zillions of $$ for ASW assets went?
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Hangtime

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2008, 12:18:49 PM »
Rich, I ain't trying to argue with yah.. I'm just pointing out the Kilo is a heluva threat and has forced changes in where and how the CG groups project power. The Formosa Straight was and remains a flash point.. it's the route the Chinese will would use to invade Taiwan and up until the appearance of the Kilos in Chinese hands we patrolled it routinely. We don't any more. An appearance of a Kilo force in the persian gulf would be a game changer... according to a guy I know over at the NRL the damn things are shallow and constrained water nightmares for the US Navy.

The Chinese have made it a major priority to field counters to put at extreme risk our ability to project force in what the chinese consider 'their' sphere of influence with billions being spent annually on naval firepower focused on making us pay dearly to contest it... underestimating them would be a fools move. But, I'm just an armchair admiral.. aside from some low classification contract work with the NRL I'm outta the loop on what they got and have only limited knowledge of what we can do about it.

<S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Dos Equis

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2008, 12:19:51 PM »
Really? What class of SSN, SSBN, and SLBM, do the Chinese currently have operational? Which ones do they have operational that can compare with USN Seawolf and Virginia class SSNs, Ohio class SSBNs, and the Trident-ll D5 SLBM?

Ill give you a hint. The answer is less then one.

Huh. How interesting.

However, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I said the Chinese willingness to fight is different than it was then. I didn't say anything about the sub fleet, I said it was crap in the 1960s, I didn't say it could match the USN today. You read that in, before you went off on that sub tangent.

The Chinese ICBM fleet is not crap today. They would not back down from a full scale confrontation with the US Military. Let's hope neither of us ever get proven wrong on that, but from people I know in the US government, some of whom attended the Beijing olympics, and having been to Hong Kong myself - twice - I can tell you, the Chinese do not fear the west.

Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2008, 01:04:44 PM »

Hmmm...I'd think that since China could supply/assist Pakistan via overland routes, the Naval equation's would most likely be constrained to the Pakistani Navy, anyway.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Trouble on the Pakistani Border.
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2008, 01:08:17 PM »
Huh. How interesting.

However, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I said the Chinese willingness to fight is different than it was then. I didn't say anything about the sub fleet, I said it was crap in the 1960s, I didn't say it could match the USN today. You read that in, before you went off on that sub tangent.

The Chinese ICBM fleet is not crap today. They would not back down from a full scale confrontation with the US Military. Let's hope neither of us ever get proven wrong on that, but from people I know in the US government, some of whom attended the Beijing olympics, and having been to Hong Kong myself - twice - I can tell you, the Chinese do not fear the west.

Then please name the systems they have that could force us to back down? Here, http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-5.htm , let me help you. This systems that they developed in the 1970s is roughly comparable to our Titan program "we" developed in the '50s.

I think its swell youv been to Hong Kong and have furthered developed your "pulse of the Chinese nation" by knowing people who went to the Beijing Olympics. But neither one will mean much should you put in a resume with JANEs Defense as a strategic special weapons analyst.

Whether they fear us or not its a mathematical certainty that even with a small % of our strategic deterrent we could turn every inch of China into a radioactive wasteland. BTW "then" they sent a vast human wave to fight us in Korea. And the only reason they did is because a spy in the highest Levels of the British Govt. had reported back to Mao that Harry Truman had promised the Brits that under no circumstances would we use atomic weapons in The Korean war. Unless you can introduce some facts here Equis this entire subject is becoming pointless and silly. Your not making any kind of case to back up your assertions, not even a bad case.
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some of whom attended the Beijing Olympics,
 :lol

Our navy is more then capable of dealing with any threat of SSKs. We have a tremendous amount of experience in ASW which begins in not putting the CVN into a bad position to begin with. We never went the SSK route because they are slow, have very limited range, weapons load, and are very vulnerable when they have to recharge their batteries. They are a threat in coastal waters but we have many assets capable of finding them and killing them including new technologies and ships coming out right now. Heres one of them http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-mods.htm

I dont know where you got that "one Kilo for one CVN" formula of yours. You do realize that China has never fought a modern naval war dont you? I just dont understand why you consider a SSK designed in the 1980s is such an indomitable and unprecedented threat to what is, by far, the most powerful and capable navy in all of recorded history.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"