Author Topic: FAST ATTACK vs MA Mentality  (Read 2088 times)

Offline Hangtime

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FAST ATTACK vs MA Mentality
« on: January 23, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »
The other night I had an opportunity to run a variety of attack profiles under varying conditions and those; compiled with dozens of others run over the course of the past few weeks have lead me to an inescapable conclusion… The bish truly are ravening dogs that attack with ferocity and tenacity.. but without much disposition towards little details like goon support or attack element survival.

Typical Bish Assault:  Everybody follows everybody else “over dis way..” ..some have ords; most don’t; none have much of a plan in mind other than ‘gonna kill them knits’ or ‘wait till them ugly assed rooks see THIS’. When critical mass over the target area is reached (approx ¼ to 1/3 of total bish population) and after about half of those have been shot down (and come back twice) the announcement goes out “send goon”. Of course; by this time 6 goon drivers have already met their makers and are understandably less than enthusiastic about another useless attempt in that madhouse…

Enter FAST ATTACK. An organized plan of assault whereby the Mission Planner is employed, pilots are briefed as to targets; routes; the order of battle, ordnance to be employed and individual areas of responsibility.

Now normally; FAST ATTACK relies on overlapping areas of responsibility and mutual support across the various elements of the attack force.  It’s usually comprised of Med buffs; C47’s and their JABO fighter escorts and whenever possible, a ‘light’ fighter sweep is dispatched in advance to clear the airspace over the target area.

Basically, the plan calls for the JABO/Escorts to move into the contested airspace over the target and force down or destroy any aircraft at altitudes that represent a threat to the buffs, which arrive shortly after the JABO Escorts do. The JABO Escorts are NOT expected to attack ANYTHING ground based till the buffs have closed the hangers and popped the acks down. (This takes less than 3 minutes for 4 B26’s) Once the Buffs have  knocked down the acks and hopefully the hangers;  THEN the Escort/JABO’s are brought in to deal with any armor on the field or run cleanup on hangers missed due to losses in the buff force. It goes without saying that the buffs first target on that field is the VH.  A JABO destroyed by ack while he downs a hanger a buff will nail anyway within 2 minutes is a wasted death. That pilot accomplised nothing that the buff assets dispatched to that field would not obtain.. and in dying the JABO pilot has added to the risk of failure of the attack via weakening of the combat cap OVER the field.

The idea here is to have the JABO Escorts keep as much of the attack force (and it’s c47’s) alive as possible, for as long as possible. It must be mentioned that killing any enemy fighters or GV’s prior to destruction of the hangers is a guarantee that that freshly dead defending pilot does 2 things.. ONE.. Holler fer help on his country channel (BISH HITTING A24!!  HELP!!) and TWO: immediately Re-Up from the field… from which vantage point  he will no doubt immediately spot the low dots on the horizon… the GOONS. Of course.. we have all seen how that attack goes… the first wave of goons die, and even though the field is eventually closed; by the time the goons get back; the enemy has brought in help from neighboring fields, has caught the attackers low strafing the fuel tanks, ammo bins and various other field infrastructure that  we should really  keep intact for our own use after its (hopefully) eventual capture.  Even worse, since the attackers are now low; they are unable to cap or screen for the low goons that are just then making their low runs in to drop troops. Results are usually the same.. one or two arriving defenders from another field drop down on the goons; kill them and then pick off the attackers that remain while more reinforcements arrive to help mop up the shattered remnants of the original attack force. The fields a ‘bust’, no soap, no capture.

Ok; now, so that you might get a little better understanding of where the biggest problems lie; consider first the job of the escort JABO fighters associated with the main attack force. Their job in NO WAY entails any attack upon the field assets until the Buffs have finished the hangers and the acks. Let the buffs deal with the main field assets and defenses. ONLY AFTER the hangers and acks are down should the JABO’s go to work.. up to that point they should be at intermediate altitude providing coverage and defense of the airspace needed by the buffs or dealing with any threat to the goon force.. Again.. attack NOTHING unless it’s a threat; an IMMEDIATE threat to the buffs or goons. Remember WHAT that pilot will do if you shoot him down too soon…  he’ll re-up AFTER he hollers fer help; advertise the goons location and come right back on the deck to kill it. Better you keep him interested.. but don’t attack him till you have to. Once the acks and hangers are down; the JABO’s go in and clean up any low defending air assetts THEN the defending armor forces, THEN RE-GRAB AND SET COMBAT AIR PATROL OVER THAT BASE!! Screen toward the closest enemy field.. where the defenders are likely scrambling to bust up the attack.. intercept them well BEFORE they get to the contested field.. DO NOT MINDLESSLEY CIRCLE OVER THE FIELD AT 1000 FEET AFTER YER ORDNANCE IS GONE.. if you have only .50 cal ammo left you ain’t gonna kill any armor.. SWEEP TOWARDS THE NEXT CLOESET ENEMY FIELD!

The Goons.. all too often; our brave and intrepid goon driver suffers an attack of impatientius, and dashes into the attacked field while it still has live on site defenders thus attracting the immediate and deadly attention of every enemy fighter in three girds around. Hold yer horses.. and the drunks, up short of dot range on the field. I can’t stress this strongly enuff… if you can see their dots THEY CAN SEE YOURS! Stay outta dot range, wait till you receive the call to come in. Remember, one maxim known instinctively by every pilot with guns in this sim. LOW DOT = GOON = EASY KILL = FIELD SECUITY. Stay smart.. stay alive.. don’t be where they are gonna look for you.

Now that you know what goes wrong.. here's how we do it RIGHT.  Two B26's or JU88's are detailed and armed for acks, two more are detailed and armed for hangers. The JABO force consistis of heavy fighters armed with 1k eggs and rockets. The goon force is 2 or more C47's; and they are dispatched on a diffrent course with a final IP that is NOT on the target field. The JABO's transit ahead of the buffs; and once over the target field they DO NOT attack it; but instead, CAP it. The buffs arrive within 2 minutes of the JABO's and proceed to take down the acks and hangers.. this takes two passes, at most three.. 3 to 4 1/2 minutes tops. Once acks and hangers are down; JABO's are free to engage low assetts and enemy armor. B26's re-route to the GOONS IP, descened and proceed with goons back toward the target. By this time; the JABO's will have dispatched any remaining armor on the field, sounded the all clear for the goons to approach and be RE-GRABBING to establish hi-cap over the field; with some elements from the JABO force sweeping towards the next closest enemy field for intercept of interlopers.

Simple, enh?? It should be.. and when we do it like this it goes fast and easy.. the field is overwhelmed before it can muster adequite defensive assets, the goons approach unopposed, the capture goes down without a hiccup.

Sadly; merely because most guys flying the JABO section don't understand the concept of "HOLD, CAP; COVER THE BUFFS AND GOONS" they instead see a low no-threat defender attempting to grab up towards the out-of-reach buffs, they ALL go in and attack it, or worse; die gloriously but uselessly attacking hangers or acks that would be destroyed in a few minutes anyway without risk.

The FAST ATTACK mission profile is intended to gain the strategic target being attacked WITH MINIMUM RISK AND LOSSES to the attacking force while delivering OVERWHELMING DAMAGE TO THE TARGET. If any elemet fails to do it's job; the enitire force is weakened unneccesairly and all elements are put at extreme risk.

In essence.. do it smart; get kills, get the objective; do not die. Screw up; all are at risk; most die; no objective obtained.. and mayhem ensues..

Comments??

Hang
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Offline Staga

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FAST ATTACK vs MA Mentality
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »
One more letter like that and I'll join to Bishes (again )

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
Hangtime gave the receipe of success to rooks and knits for his personal glory of "look I'm Patton".

Hang him high and short! Or better, execute him with rusted bullets to give him the tetanos!
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
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Offline BBGunn

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
I thought you did an excellent job of sizing up the situation Hangtime.  I like the overall essence of the plan.  One small suggestion- I have noticed in past games that C47 drivers frequently fly a straight line from their base to the enemy base being attacked and some folks anticipate this and hunt the goonys way before they arrive. Having experienced this from both perspectives I think that the offense should send a few turn fighters with the goonys or have the goonys drivers take a route other than straight between bases.  Hey! Good job.  I'd like to see more posts like yours.

Offline hblair

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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »
Great post hangtime. Isn't it great when the whole thing comes together efficiently?

This is exactly the plan I like to see if we have enough pilots in the mission...

 
Quote
Now that you know what goes wrong.. here's how we do it RIGHT. Two B26's or JU88's are detailed and armed for acks, two more are detailed and armed for hangers. The JABO force consistis of heavy fighters armed with 1k eggs and rockets. The goon force is 2 or more C47's; and they are dispatched on a diffrent course with a final IP that is NOT on the target field. The JABO's transit ahead of the buffs; and once over the target field they DO NOT attack it; but instead, CAP it. The buffs arrive within 2 minutes of the JABO's and proceed to take down the acks and hangers.. this takes two passes, at most three.. 3 to 4 1/2 minutes tops. Once acks and hangers are down; JABO's are free to engage low assetts and enemy armor. B26's re-route to the GOONS IP, descened and proceed with goons back toward the target. By this time; the JABO's will have dispatched any remaining armor on the field, sounded the all clear for the goons to approach and be RE-GRABBING to establish hi-cap over the field; with some elements from the JABO force sweeping towards the next closest enemy field for intercept of interlopers.


funked

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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
Hangtime = ]-[onker?  

Offline john9001

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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
attention knights...we have cracked the top secret bishcode...see sbove msg labeled "hangtime".we now have the secret plans of FAST ATTACK and can defend agasinst it.

ops officer
headquarters g-2

Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Hang yer talents are truely wasted in the land of the bish

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2001, 05:36:00 PM »
Gimme 5 loaded 190's flown by LW pilots, and I shall give you a captured field  

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2001, 06:00:00 PM »
I've been a part of way more succesful 3 person (2 jabo + goon) field captures than I have with these large lumbering missions. Although they are alotta fun, from my perspective the failure to success ratio for these types of attacks has been less than stellar.

Obviously, you have the larger dar profile of 10+ dots comming in, so the advantage you attain through your large numbers is nullified by the amount of prepared defence you are likely to recieve.

Hang - I would be tempted to use the number of guys you get signed up a bit more creatively. Send them on smaller, related, but seperate tasks. The sledgehammer approach aint all that great in terms of bang fer the buck.

Also, in my opinion "Fast Attack" tactics using Buffs is a bit like an oxymoron. Buffs are obsolete for anything but strategic targets. There is simply too much time between the nme country getting the heads-up, to the moment that yer Buffs reach their target.

I'm not sure how much 'suprise' factors into these things... but whatever the amount - you have lost it. Even if the time difference to base didn't  factor in, once yer buff/s has been spotted, the nme has a very clear idea of what you're up to.  Add to this the fact the Buff is unidimensional; once it drops its eggs, it goes home.

JABO can do everything needed in securing a base, as well as CAP, and do it with alot more speed.

Also - the goon has to be there. If the mission planner has no goon signed up, he should halt that mission till one does. The goon has to be *AT* that field * THE MOMENT* that the last bit of defence has been put down.  It is absolutley useless to even bother if the goon is not rolling at the same time the main group is. Do not call for a goon once yer ready for one. Call  well beforehand.... even delaying your attack until you can synch up your timing.

A general rule of thumb that I've learned about taking fields is:

If ya don't take it within five minutes of your 1st plane arriving there, it is likely you will never take it.


Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
LOL Santa.. MA has CHANGED. It's a rare thing indeed to have an attack as you describe obtain anything more than a contested field.. the successful un-contested JABO only grab is rare indeed in an arena with 175 pilots equipped with a cockpit accssesed radar map.. Nowdays you need to attack with superior force and altitude or you fail.

BBGunn, I've tried using escorts for the goons and have had poor success. From my own experience in a P51.. if i see a goon; it's dead. No escort can stop me.. it's just a matter of getting down to him. The secret to success for the goon teams is in hiding effectively. Near the target, but out of sight; with the goons in several locations.. finding one does not reveal the location of another. Further.. if the attacked field is correctly capped and closed in a timely fasion; remaining defensers can be dealt with rather effectively before they can get to a postion to threaten the goon.

John9001.. only way to stop a FAST ATTACK mission thats being properly executed is to locate and destroy the goon force or preferably; neutralise the Buff force. If either the BUFF force or JABO force makes it to the field uncontested; the field is CLOSED. In that circumstance; even if the goons are located you still have a field in ruins; with more goons and a second attack formation on the way.. the battle escalates... and it gets real ugly.  

Frenchy; the knits and rooks have been using a similar profile for months now. We have not. I'm giving away nothing.. and hopefully educating the Bish on how to get the job done. So often we have the assets and willing pilots to get outta the bucket, but they just don't know how to go about getting it done. I believe it's only because they don't fully appreciate or understand what the relationship is between themseleves and those friendly buffs and goons on the way to the target is and what it should be.. or they have a diffrent agenda and are looking to their own intrests, not those of the bish as a whole.

Staga.. come join us.. several of us are workin mighty hard at turning the bish mob into a team, there lots good guys here too.. and good pilots always get the best grog over here. We're gettin better all the time... and I'd love ta fly with yah again. We'll have fun.  

Hang
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The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2001, 06:39:00 PM »
I see the point of refrence Nash.. but I disagree. The med buff has a big role to play.. if you use it's strengths.

B26's across the normal distance between fields can be on target at attack altitudes witin 2-3 minutes of the arrival of JABO fighters dispatched at the same time. If those fighters were Capping and clearing the 8-12k airspace OVER the field instead of hitting the fixed ground targets ON the field that the buffs were detailed to hit and INSTEAD attacked the defending low fighters and any armor AFTER those assets were down we'd lose far fewer JABO fighters and close the field down JUST AS FAST.. possibly faster.

More often than not the JABO's MISS the VH and or FH's and get pegged by the acks or jumped by low defenders and just waste themselves uselessly. The B26's on the other hand require far fewer passes to destroy the assets and can do so with minimum risk and significantly greater accuracy. General rule of thumb.. if it's moving, it's a JABO target. If it's a fixed installation it belongs to the buffs.

FAST ATTACK does work.. when the JABO teams fly the profile. When 13th TAS had buff and goon pilots we'd run a variation of this profile.. to my knowledge it never failed to capture a field; tho sometimes we suffered 20-50% losses clearing out the defenders after the hangers and acks went down. But back then, rockets didn't work well and Ponys were poor JABO platforms against osties and m16's. That's changed.  

<S!> Nash.. and thanks for the help in those missions!

Hang
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The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2001, 06:40:00 PM »
Many MA pilots look to kill, not really take fields. they will prefer grab a fig and go for the "easy vulch" rather than taking a buff and kill a FH/VH.

Diving 3-4 planes after the same plane who is buzzing the deck is the same overall behavior. It's MA behavior, and that's good you are working toward changing it, but I think they fly like this by choice; not really because they were never lucid enought to not realize the consequences. They are not stupid.
Dat jugs bro.

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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »
I agree they ain't stupid Frenchy.. merely ignorant.

What vulch pilots gonna get vulch kills when the radar goes down because we failed to shut off the enemys offense?

Who enjoys wandering around looking for a fight when he can't see or locate the fight?

How many pilots have left the country they fly with in disgust because their radars down for another three hours for the third time that day?

These guys wanna furball and vultch.. Great!! So do I sometimes.. hell it's fun! I'm stipulating that there are also times when it's necessary to band together and go on the attack as a group to insure that our radar stays up; or even better; deny the enemy his to improve your hunting later.

I'm just laying out a roadmap of HOW TO DO IT TO THEM BEFORE THEY GET IT DONE TO YOU.

The cure for stupidity is death. The cure for ignorance is education.

<S!>

Hang
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2001, 07:07:00 PM »
I think you're getting close Hang, but  since suprise and speed are going to be disregarded, here's what you're looking at:

An enemy country that sees on dar a huge bar amassed adjacent to one of its fields. Eventually it sees 5-6 dots (JABO) appear inbound, followed by another 3-4 dots (Buffs). It knows your intention. It  has the VH standing and the field dar keeping them aprised of the scale and location of the threat. It also has 3-5 minutes of time since the incoming threat was identified, plus another 3-4 minutes while the orbiting JABO awaits the Buffs.

This is the recipe of an Osty nightmare.

So now you've lost the immediate capture... as yer gonna need to clear out the Osty... and this could take ton of time/resources to do. Lets say it takes 7 minutes (optimistic) and your goon is probably 3 minutes out.

That gives the nme country 10 minutes to up from an adjacent field and engage your Jabo who are now low and short of ammo (osty hunt). Your goon is probably not protected and yer buffs are no help.

Interesting discussion Hang <S>.