Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[bustr]

Change the clipboard map dot signature for bombers. The game has reached the point Im upgrading hardware again...so change the dot to reflect how big the bomber is along with it being a box of bombers. Or change the color of the con dot for enemy bombers to orange vs. red.

It will either cause bombers to be obsolete, or bombers getting escorts, or all bombers to fly NOE to target, or bombers squads to fly huge box missions.......but it would change the game play. Then bomber destroyers might make a come back as strategic assets.

[dkff49]

Your post smacks of someone who want to accuse me of whining instead of actually developing a logical rebuttal. You are also quite naive if you think I have not explored the possible tactics to use against buffs. At the end of the day, as it stands in AH, there is no really reliable way to bring down a formation with a decent gunner quickly enough to prevent  them from accomplishing their mission without exposing yourself to defensive fire. With small distances between the bases, not to mention limits on fighter's range, there is simply not time to bring down bombers before they reach their target by setting up supposedly "safe" passes from the front quarter (they are not appreciably safer than diving attacks from very high6) with the attendant low percentage shots. After the front-quarter attack, there will be a great deal of separation between the buff formation and the attacker, a great deal of time will be needed to get ahead of the formation to do it again, and by that time, the buffs will have dropped their ords, so there is no point. Minor things like smoking an engine or inflicting a fuel leak also don't really matter when bases average 25 miles apart.

I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time. The fighter-on-fighter stuff will more often than not be rendered superfluous, the fighter bomber is also rendered somewhat superfluous the historically interesting interplay of escort and interceptor does not get replicated, and the map is moved by whatever side has enough people willing to up buffs and toolshed the other side to death.

wasn't trying to accuse you or anybody  else of anything.

simply saying that the bombers are not completely undefeatable. There is a way to defeat them with almost 100% success. As far as them being near 100% effecctive in getting their bombs to target, I would have to say you might be right about that. On the other hand though every airfield has at least 3 FH and it is very difficult (not impossible) to get all 3 of those in one pass. This means that they may take out 2 of 3 but you will have some time to get them in the mean time while they are attempting to get turned around for 2 pass.

Try looking at it form this point of view.

If you decide to up after bombers by yourself, then you are upping 1 plane versus 3 planes. What is the difference flying into a 3vs1 with you being the 1? Not much, you know you are upping against 3 then take 2 buddies with you this will definitely offset the odds in your favor.

[dkff49]

llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.

This may seem kind of noobish here but


Usually if I get killed by Lusche when in buffs, I won't re-up in bombers back to that area again. The reason is that no need to re-up to same portion when he is going to get you and not possibly kill all 3.

Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.

And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.

I upped B17's against Lusche before and he got all 3 of mine without taking a single hit from me. As a matter of fact I didn't even have a guns solution on him since he came from straight down. The only defense from the guy coming down like this, is to turn to get that guns on him. At this point then the good buff hunuter pulls back out and realigns (just what Lusche did) and come back after reaquiring advantage.

BTW this only worked a handful of times and I never really got a decent shot off on Lusche when this was attempted.

back to my point a good buff hunter will have no trouble taking out all 3 bombers even against the best of bomber pilots.

Want to know how to do it ask Lusche (trainer corp member)

[LYNX]

1. In observing fights between pairs of bases, I have noticed that much more often than the fight ending because one side gradually grinds down and pushes back the other to establish true air (or ground) superiority, it ends when someone on one side or the other ups a formation of Lancasters, B24s, or B17s and bombs the crap out of the hangars. This is unless they start out by bombing the hangars, in which case the fight never develops in the first place.Some folk think there's a capture going on and chip in with their bombers, only to wonder what the hell happened when no one follows up.  Some folk see it as a way to releave the pressure on their sides base thinking their about to lose it.  Some folk stumble into a capture attempt thinking it's a jolly old furball

2. These heavies were meant for devastating industry/cities from high altitudes. The bomb load of a formation, combined with the easy accuracy of the level-bombing sites at lower altitudes, makes them almost ridiculous overkill for hangar dropping. They also render fighter-bombers, which are historically more along the lines of what you would expect to be used on such targets, almost superfluous by comparison.Since the first day I got here I've NEVER understood the propensity to hanger bang.  The freakin troops run to the map room not the poxy hangers.  Why the dedicated bomber pilots don't automatically bomb towns is beyond me.  Spend 30 min getting to alt just to pop some hangers that come up in 15 bleedin minutes....yer that makes sense.  There is a time and place to hanger bang but it's a long way short of the DEFAULT target.

3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable. Whereas in reality, daylight bombing with unescorted bombers proved to be disastrously costlyonly if there were baddies about, you negated to add., even with large formations, in the AHII MA it is much easier to land 3 kills of fighters than it is to hunt buffs, and everyone knows it. Thus they most often go unintercepted.Because few can be bothered to set up the ideal attack To start with, a formation can under ideal conditions point up to 18 .50 caliber machine guns at a single fighter.12 guns and just for a brief moment (Fighter pilots, unlike buff pilots, do not have the option of automatically upping with 2 wingmen to help them shoot down buffs). This is a situation that makes strafing WWs look like a good bet by comparison. Because there are no convergence issues,650 is default buff convergence and because a flight of buffs on autopilot is an artificially rock-solid gun platform, the effective range of all these guns is typically at least half-again that of the fighter attacking them. Bombers travel at about half the speed a fighter can attack at.  There is no attacking angle that allows a fighter to really take a shot at the buffs without giving them an equally good shot at him. high 12 straight down or as near as possible is the fastest, safest wayFront-quarter or head-on attacks work for expert shots in birds bristling with cannon, but not too often for average attackers in more lightly armed planes.Not the best way unless you want to waist time getting back into them Furthermore, the most heavily armed planes, like 110s, 190 A8s, Mossies, etc, are not nearly as common as planes more suited to a fighter-on-fighter role, and tend to climb slowly, a definite handicap when asked to intercept buffs on short notice.

Basically, the result of all this is that unescorted buffs, which should be a prized target, are in fact avoided and usually succeed in their mission.Hence there's no baddies about that can be.....BOTHERD The role of escort is almost superfluous, it could almost be said that escorts in the AH MA basically just steal kills from the buff gunners.

4. My solution to the problem? Consider disabling/perking formations for the heaviest buffs. This would tend to reduce both destructive capability and defensive firepower. Alternatively, at least make it impossible to link all defensive guns together, so that attacking fighters would be facing say 6 .50 caliber tailguns firing at them instead of 18 guns. A far better solution would be to revive the old calibration style of pushing your stick forward and holding a spot and where you had to use salvo's to insure success.

Sorry mate but this post seems akin to a grief rather than a solution.  Your obviously not a bomber user or you'd have a different tail to tell.  Low bombers under 10k are a perk points waiting to happen.  As a rule of thumb heavies take about a sector to make that alt and that doesn't allow for accurate calibration because your still gaining speed.  As for the 20k bomber that's travelled 3 sectors then you either ignore the dar bar or you get alt.  If you can't be BOTHERED then that's his good fortune for taking the time to get 20k....you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

As I see it the only way your likely to stop a solo set of bombers taking out the hangers is the old calibration method.  If implemented then perhaps towns would be more of a priority or a coordinated 2 or 3 man bomber mission would have to be used.  This way the dar bar from 3 sectors away may be of more significance but, from this post, I doubt it.

[Rich46yo]

I think the bottom line is if you dont have the patience, skill, and the right bomber killer, then your probably better off not coming into bomber formations with a poor attack solution. Just the other day I had a guy in a 110 come right into the "6" of my Lancs and just hang there at 1,000k shooting it out with me. Obviously he was going to lose, even against rather poorly defended Lancs. Had he taken the time to setup a good attack angle he probably would have aced at least 1 or 2 Lancs, and maybe all of them.

A 190 A-8 coming in at warp factor 9, when he has about 5,000' on you, is a very difficult target to hit hard enough to put down. The better bomber killers are very heavily armed, but make no mistake, a fighter armed with 6 0.50s is perfectly capable of aceing any bomber formation in the game.

I only upp bombers a few times a month nowdays. But back when I was flying them a lot I considered the 30 eny KI-67s the most dangerous bomber in the game attack-wise. Not just cause they are heavily armed, even tho they are, but the thing is they are so fast they force the impatient to either adopt a poor attack profile, or, just plain not bother attacking.

Thats what the great bomber hunters all have, "patience". And that was the first thing I would notice when they were setting up on me. If I saw they were patient I figured I have a pretty hard time ahead.

So dont blame the game for your own impatience. In real life it took a lot of guts for fighter pilots to come into all the heavy machine guns of bomber formations. And a lot came in but never came out, and if you had bad luck or made a poor decision it was a long, long way down. There was nothing left of these guys to even bury.

Aces High has done a great job recreating the bomber war. I dont think anything should be changed, other then this Lame Stuka act.

[BnZ]

So.. there are 2 people in the arena.  

You want the game to let you know that a formation of bombers is 2 grids away and is going to target the hangars at your base?  Can't be generic here.. if it's something other than bombers, the bomber-destroyer aircraft wouldn't be appropriate for a dogfight, and then you wouldn't be very happy.  

Would you like updates in case the targets are changed?

Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about changing radar set up.

How many C-47s should the other player be allowed to group in a formation to balance out against your spitfire?  P47? LA-7?

Very silly comparison. The whole point of having to run a vulnerable transport aircraft or vehicle in to effect capture is that achieving superior force in that that will be requirement if such a sitting duck is likely to get through. Whereas buffs tend to succeed regardless of air superiority.

btw.. unlinking was tried and the bombers still died too easily, for those of you wondering.  Conversely, I believe we were able to set convergence on bomber guns to 1.0k or 1.3k at one point, and that turned out to be too deadly, so the convergence for the linked guns were set to a fixed 650.

What is "too easily"? If that means a lone guy in an unescorted buff formation fails to reach the target half the time, I'd say that is just enough. Like I say, there are many aiming difficulties for buff gunners that are not represented in AHII, I think allowing them to train the six .50s from 3 fighters is quite fair to them, and gives a good buff driver under MA conditions a fair chance of destroying/driving off a fighter and still arriving on target with at least one bomber.

To those who have said "Bring a gang of fighters to attack a formation" repeatedly: One buff pilot should on average be so effective that it takes the combined efforts of 2 or more fighter pilots to stop him most of the time? That would be the very definition of "unbalancing" IMHO. I don't see HTC making it possible for fighter pilots attempting to intercept to bring two spare planes, just doesn't seem practical. 

BTW, those of you who think I just plain have it out for buff pilots, see some of my posts about giving bombers meaningful strategic targets to hit.

[BnZ]

Thats what the great bomber hunters all have, "patience". And that was the first thing I would notice when they were setting up on me. If I saw they were patient I figured I have a pretty hard time ahead.

Again, a point that many are missing is there is most often simply not TIME to attack buff formations in this ultra-patient manner and prevent them from hitting their target. And since there is no attrition factor, destroying the bombers after the fact does not achieve any strategic objective except possibly putting the bomber pilot back up in a new formation quicker.

[E25280]

What is "too easily"? If that means a lone guy in an unescorted buff formation fails to reach the target half the time, I'd say that is just enough.

And there is your problem.  You have an unrealistic expectation that the bomber pilot's experience in this game should completely suck just so you can have a better time than your 90% enjoyment.

So what if he gets through?  Hangers are down for 15 minutes, and as you stated earlier, the bases are very close together.  Therefore, your enjoyment of upping fighters is not really affected to any significant degree.

The bases are laid out such that no single buff formation can take out all hangers on a base in a single pass.  So your argument of "one buff pilot" having a disparate affect is silly.  IF (very big IF) there are any fighter pilots who care to be bothered, they can intercept the single buff formation before he finishes the job.

If he is too high to do so, then the pilot has taken himself out of the fight for 20 minutes or more just to gain enough altitude to be "uninterceptable" by your definition.  That means his side is down a man for all that time, and therefore again, there is no unbalancing aspect to it.

The fighter has every advantage in speed and agility a one-on-one situation with a heavy bomber.  Massed firepower was the bomber's only defense against interceptors -- something the box only allows a flavor of -- and you want to take even that small equalizer away.

Yep, still smacks of a whine to me.  "Make it so no one can hurt me if I don't want them to.  It isn't easymode enough for me, and I don't want to be bothered with having to compensate for my opponent's one defense."

[BnZ]

And there is your problem.  You have an unrealistic expectation that the bomber pilot's experience in this game should completely suck just so you can have a better time than your 90% enjoyment.

Paper tiger. Not worth answering, except to say that once again, if you think I have some vendetta against bomber pilots, you are full of it.

The fighter has every advantage in speed and agility a one-on-one situation with a heavy bomber.  Massed firepower was the bomber's only defense against interceptors -- something the box only allows a flavor of -- and you want to take even that small equalizer away.

Agility doesn't matter terribly much against something that can point its guns at you from practically every angle. Thinking it over, I've already dismissed the idea of getting rid of the formation, in favor of allowing them a potent amount of defensive firepower instead of a ridiculous amount.

Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.

Yep, still smacks of a whine to me.  "Make it so no one can hurt me if I don't want them to.  It isn't easymode enough for me, and I don't want to be bothered with having to compensate for my opponent's one defense."

Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued.

[Toof]

When I can't intercept a formation before they get ords off, I'm just as happy making them pay for it while they try to RTB. My .02

[Die Hard]

Before the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way to Germany the Luftwaffe's favourite method of attack was to slowly creep up the bomber's six. They slaughtered 60 bombers out of 370 in one day over Schweinfurt and Regensburg. Even after the USAAF started escorting the bombers all the way the Luftwaffe shot down three bombers for every fighter they lost.

[Ack-Ack]

3. The crux of the problem with buffs is that with a decent gunner they are nigh un-interceptable.

Bombers are probably the easiest things to shoot down other than a C47.  I'm really amazed that someone is asking that the bomber formations be perked or even think a formation is nearly undefeatable.  Every bomber in this game has a very exposed weakness, attacks from above at a 45 degree angle dive aiming for the wing root or forward area (cockpit), attacks like this will usually result in a bomber going down on each pass.  

If you have troubles, I will be more than happy to teach you how to properly attack bombers.

ack-ack

[E25280]

Paper tiger. Not worth answering, except to say that once again, if you think I have some vendetta against bomber pilots, you are full of it. No, it is exactly on point.  By your own admission, you only want bombers to be able to drop their bombs 50% of the time or less.  What fun would it be for someone who wants to shoot planes down if he only managed to find a plane to shoot at less than 50% of the time?  Sounds boring to me.  If someone wants to blow stuff up, but only gets to do so less than 50% of the time, it would be equally boring / pointless.

Agility doesn't matter terribly much against something that can point its guns at you from practically every angle. Thinking it over, I've already dismissed the idea of getting rid of the formation, in favor of allowing them a potent amount of defensive firepower instead of a ridiculous amount. Agility doesn't matter?  The fighter is able to change his direction at will to throw off the aim of the gunners, but that doesn't matter?  Meanwhile that huge, lumbering buff is flying straight and level, but that doesn't give the fighter pilot a seriously large advantage to his aim?  Is that what you are seriously saying?

Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.
Everyone ignores it because it is superfluous to your contention that the buff is somehow unbalancing. 

Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued.Perhaps, instead of pretending I have insulted you, you should take another long look at your argument and recognize there are large flaws in it.  To me, the flaws are such that it can hardly be taken as a serious attempt at a discussion of the issue, hence the label I used -- of your argument, not of you.

Lynx for one pretty well disected it.

I invite you to re-read your suggestions from the standpoint of someone who enjoys, or at least participates, in the bomber aspect of the game, and see what kind of conclusion you come to.  It sure appears to be saying bombers should be defenseless and should not be allowed to have an impact on the game -- which is basically the same as saying you want them to go away.  Pretty insulting if you ask me.

[redman555]

lol, try to shoot down a set of bombers with 999000 in em ROFL, u would b shot down like 30 times b4 u got 1 of his planes burnin

-BigBOBCH

[Squire]

A single fighter can easily "suicide 6" into a single buff, guns blazing. Bombers are way too vulnerable with no formations, which is why they were added to the game. Bombers would all but disappear with no formations, and the ones that did show up would be at 27k to avoid interception It would make matters much worse. I like to see bombers in the game, it adds extra dimensions, just like GVs do.