Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[Angus]

The solution vs a bomber formation is,,,a fighter gang. No problem at all.
1 fighter vs a band of bombers in WW2 would not have brought much success.
So, IMHO, AH is good there...

[thndregg]

I consider myself a compitent buff gunner. Believe me, it is possible to get through to me with your fighter, no matter how good of a shot I may be. It takes time and patience, but it can be done. My formations have been decimated by the best of them. Come in at high angles with lots of E. I have a hard time with orientation to lead the con effectively up there. At my level and down low, I can lead very well. If you find yourself underneath where my ball gunner can reach you, I suggest you move out of range quickly.

[BnZ]

The heavies typically flown in the MA can put at least 3 gun turrets on you from almost every direction. Pardon me if I think it would be fairer if attacking a buff formation were equivalent to hoing an A-20, instead of equivalent to hoing 3 A-20s.

I have already pointed out the factors that make it typically impossible to set up multiple passes properly in suffecient time to stop the buffs from accomplishing their mission, which is the whole point of going after buffs in the first places. If the fighters could intercept the buffs 100 miles from target instead of 10, things would be different, but such is not the case in the MA.

If you are stupid and impatient enough to attack bombers from the dead 6 ( they call it 'dead' for a reason ) then you deserve to die.  Know when to fold 'em and know when to run.

[BnZ]

The solution vs a bomber formation is,,,a fighter gang. No problem at all.
1 fighter vs a band of bombers in WW2 would not have brought much success.
So, IMHO, AH is good there...

This is a good point. The problem with your argument is that I cannot check a little box in the hangar before I take off to automatically have 2 wingmen.

[BnZ]

2 guys I pray that aren't within icon range of me when I'm in buffs is 1) Lushe and 2) Skatsr.  They rip me apart every single time I confront them. they wait until I get in my bombsight and they always attack from the top and saw my wings off. works everytime unless I can ping em up and pray that they have some kills to land before my formation is annihilated.

If they are waiting till you get in the bombsight, then you are very close to target aren't you? So close that you are liable to get the bombs from 2 or at least 1 of your remaining planes off. That is the important point, not whether the buff formation RTBs or not.

In the meantime while your figuring out your tactics..if bombers are still a problem for you, theres 3 words out there for you..PORK PORK PORK. very easy to do.

Toolshed 'em back? Oh God...let us not even get into this unspeakable dweebery.

[APDrone]

The heavies typically flown in the MA can put at least 3 gun turrets on you from almost every direction. Pardon me if I think it would be fairer if attacking a buff formation were equivalent to hoing an A-20, instead of equivalent to hoing 3 A-20s.

I have already pointed out the factors that make it typically impossible to set up multiple passes properly in suffecient time to stop the buffs from accomplishing their mission, which is the whole point of going after buffs in the first places. If the fighters could intercept the buffs 100 miles from target instead of 10, things would be different, but such is not the case in the MA.

So you want the game configured in such a way that you, by yourself, can detect a bomber formation with sufficient time to take off in a plane that is particularly adept at killing bombers, climb to a reasonable attacking altitude, and have enough time to make enough attacking runs that you can kill them all before they reach their target?

And how many passes would you like?  3...4?  5 if your plane only has .50s?

Like  Angus said.. multiple fighters is the answer.

As some point Krusty will show up and paste in his argument that bombers are too fast ( I outrun his 262 in B24s ) and, as painful as it is, I will agree that there might be a discrepancy there.  However, bombers are still too vulnerable to be killed when attacked by more than 1 at a time.

[BnZ]

Seems that leaving your hangars vulnerable is a conscious choice you make.  If you want your hangars intact, defend them. 

Not going to get a lot of sympathy from me.  I will up a 190A-8 and climb to an intercept course, praying to find a buff formation to decimate.. only to end up getting raped by a typhie, spit, pony, or LGay..

Not really much in the way of argument there. You say that if buffs can run around and toolshed anybody they want to death unopposed, it is the fault of the defenders for not upping suffecient numbers of dedicated interceptors. But this proves nothing, I could just as easily turn the argument around and say that in the days of the single bombers, it was the fault of the buff pilots who got slaughtered for not enlisting more buddies to fly in formation and/or as escort.

Really to me it is about balance, and giving a buff attack a reasonable chance of failure under typical MA conditions. Getting rid of formations might indeed be swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I believe unlinking the defensive firepower might be a good moderate solution to try

[BnZ]

So you want the game configured in such a way that you, by yourself, can detect a bomber formation with sufficient time to take off in a plane that is particularly adept at killing bombers, climb to a reasonable attacking altitude, and have enough time to make enough attacking runs that you can kill them all before they reach their target?

You mean that on a given day, one average individual player would have a 50/50 shot of negating the strategic objective of another average individual player, depending of course on luck and skill?

EXACTLY! You get it.

[CAP1]

What about unlinking the guns? Short-term, perhaps a better and simpler solution.

\actually, this is most likely the best solution. period.

[CAP1]

Better and simpler for who?  Certainly not the buff drivers.

Your post smacks of a whine by someone who is under the mistaken belief that buffs should be easy prey for any fighter that even looks in their direction.  Instead of whining, why don't you just use better tactics.

not really. he's pretty much spot on.
if they unlinked the guns, BTW, it would hurt me a lot, as i fly buffs a lot, and depend on the sheer firepower to down a fighter.(as my gunnery sucks).
 unlink the guns, and take gunners on board with you. it's not that hard really.

BTW...i was messin with the dot target command last night. lanc nose guns converge at 500 yds,

[CAP1]

I will admint that hunting a formation of buffs and killing them is a difficult proposition. However with patience and practice it is not that hard to defeat them. I am not neither practiced enough nor patient enough to do it, but I know one that is.

The hardest stick I have ever seen at defeating buffs is snailman (aka lusche). I am sure he will pitch in here soon anyway. I have watched him take my formation apart with no hits on him from me. I am far fromthe best gunner in the game but I am not poor at it either. The way I have seen him do it is to come down from directly over top of the bombers. It is impossible to get a shot off at the attacker when he does this. The top turret cannot point straight up 90 degrees. Attacking buffs from this angle definitely requires patience but it is definitely not impossible to kill buffsin  a formation.

I say leave formation flying the way it is though I do hate it when someone comes in a bust up the furball with them.

llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.

[BnZ]

llllusche has attacked my JU's in EW iiiin the past. it was a beautiful thing watching his precsion...even if i never did get ords on target.

Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.

And I strongly suspect that if somehow you had 18 individuals in your buff formation manning every position, they would not be as deadly as a good individual gunner firing those 18 linked guns on single fighters.

[Delirium]

I can't believe it, but I'm actually going to side with the bomber pilots for this one.

The way I see it, the bomber pilots can only hit 2 things in the game to have an impact; HQ and airfields. Considering it takes more than 1 formation of buffs to drop HQ, a single pilot is stuck hitting airfields in the game only.

That said, I find those that kill FH (and ruin furballs) are no better than pond scum, but deep down I do have some sympathy for them.

[APDrone]

You mean that on a given day, one average individual player would have a 50/50 shot of negating the strategic objective of another average individual player, depending of course on luck and skill?

EXACTLY! You get it.

So.. there are 2 people in the arena.  

You want the game to let you know that a formation of bombers is 2 grids away and is going to target the hangars at your base?  Can't be generic here.. if it's something other than bombers, the bomber-destroyer aircraft wouldn't be appropriate for a dogfight, and then you wouldn't be very happy.  

Would you like updates in case the targets are changed?

How about altitude?

How many C-47s should the other player be allowed to group in a formation to balance out against your spitfire?  P47? LA-7?

btw.. unlinking was tried and the bombers still died too easily, for those of you wondering.  Conversely, I believe we were able to set convergence on bomber guns to 1.0k or 1.3k at one point, and that turned out to be too deadly, so the convergence for the linked guns were set to a fixed 650.

[Anaxogoras]

Ju-88s are of course in a whole different league than the "big 3" of LW MA buffs.

They could've given the JU88 a 13mm dorsal gun (like HT did at first in WB), but instead there are two pee-shooters instead.