Why the Buff formation is the most unbalancing item in the game.

[Squire]

"The climbing fighter has NO chance to setup for anything BUT a six shot since by the time he gets there the speeding buffs have left him in trail"

So what? sometimes you can set up an interception, and sometimes you cant. Just like in real life. Nobody forces you to press a bad attack, thats your call. Most bomber formations can be over taken with some time and patience. I have rolled fighters off the runway on inbound buffs at 12k and intercepted them with alt and speed.

Too many on this thread that think bombers are just supposed to explode in flames because you looked at them. Pfft.

[Shuffler]

Bombers die... and sometimes so do I......  oh well.

[Furball]

Bomber accuracy is a killer for CVs.

Historically level bombers were extremely bad at hitting ships on the open sea, that is in no way reflected in Aces High where level bomber accuracy is ~15 yards from target with the calibration system as opposed to ~1000+ yards (guestimate) as it was.

The old calibration system was better, but too many people found it too difficult and the system washed away in a river of tears to be the easy mode we have now. 

I remember the really easy mode, where you could deack an entire base using the firecrackers on the B-26, so it has been worse.

[thndregg]

Bomber accuracy is a killer for CVs.

Historically level bombers were extremely bad at hitting ships on the open sea, that is in no way reflected in Aces High where level bomber accuracy is ~15 yards from target with the calibration system as opposed to ~1000+ yards (guestimate) as it was.

The old calibration system was better, but too many people found it too difficult and the system washed away in a river of tears to be the easy mode we have now. 

I remember the really easy mode, where you could deack an entire base using the firecrackers on the B-26, so it has been worse.

I agree with Furball. CV sinking is too easy. In Bishland, I'm asked many times to go sink this boat or that boat, and more often than not it goes down, unless the other side has a defensive cap over it, or someone is really good in the 5" guns. As far as the old calibration system? Yes. Bring it back. In our squad, a long time ago, we formed a bomber wing which specialized in hitting targets with the old method. Not everyone could do it, but a few of us did get proficient at it. I hated to see it go.

[Dadsguns]

You said,"I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time."

I disagree, I would say its more like 50-90 percent chance of a bomber not making it back to land.  I fly bombers frequently, I have seen particular planes that can shoot and hit from a distance that is beyond the range of the bombers guns, some planes can attack and flame the wings with a ping.  So, I dont see any unfair advantage, rarely did one plane attack a flight of bombers in formation, they worked in packs.

If your looking to buzz the formation and take out 3 bombers in one swoop, your sadley mistaken.  They already have a huge disadvantage by being so slow and not manuevarble, hence the massive guns onboard to protect itself.  

When I attack with bombers and the cons are high, I go higher and the poor guy that climbs up to meet me usually just wastes his time cause he finds himself in the tower because he doesnt know how to attack a flight of bombers.

I have found that many priamarily will go after bombers not because they are defending anything, but for easy kills.  Yes I said it, easy kills.  This is due to the skills of pilots that fly the bombers and since they rarely fly them or if a noob, you should fly bombers more often and see how much a disadvantage you really have.
There are some good pilots that have learned to attack them and are successful at it, and are far more easier kills than working on another fighter if done properly.

The only other advice I can give you, dont attack bombers until you get some skills to do so.  

[BnZ]

Yep, that's why when I make my pass I am diving at a 45 degree angle, nose pointing between the cockpit and nose.  My angle makes it extremely difficult for the gunners to track and when I fire, my rounds usually impact the cockpit or wing root area.  With the P-38's guns, not much can survive a solid burst to the wing root or cockpit area.


ack-ack

This is exactly how I attack them, given the opportunity. Still get hit alot. Granted, the 24s at least do have the magic "wingroot, instant fire" button. B-17s are actually worse to encounter IMHO.

Seems like even in starting with an altitude advantage in something crazy fast like a D9, the number high-speed, high-angle passes you can make before having to enter a lengthy phase of A. Climbing up above the buffs (at least 1500 yards higher to avoid the guns) and B. Chasing them back down after you do this is maximum 3.

I notice the P-38 actually had a good K/D ratio against buffs, its centerline firepower can reach out there to counter the questionable accuracy possible with a buff's defensive guns.

[BnZ]

You said,"I will repeat, the gist of all this is that one formation heavies will succeed not 50% of the time but more like 90% of the time."

I disagree, I would say its more like 50-90 percent chance of a bomber not making it back to land.  I fly bombers frequently, I have seen particular planes that can shoot and hit from a distance that is beyond the range of the bombers guns, some planes can attack and flame the wings with a ping.

Whether the bombers LAND or not is unimportant. I won't even chase one that has expended its ords and is RTB. Whether or not they take out their target before being destroyed is what his whole thread has been about.

What fighter gun out-ranges the .50s? I have been pinged at 1000 yards by buffs. Now from a standpoint of ballistics, .50s can be very accurate at extreme range, but unrealistically, we have no air currents, slight movements of the buff the gunner is riding in, we have icons, etc, all extending the effective range of gunner positions. Whereas, yes fighters in AH also might be able to shoot at much longer ranges than were typical, but the fact they are using nose-mounted armament and have to "fly" to their gun solution introduces at least a little platform un-steadieness. Fighters typically face convergence issues. These two things mitigate the  long-range shooting ability of fighters down to less unrealistic levels.

  So, I dont see any unfair advantage, rarely did one plane attack a flight of bombers in formation, they worked in packs.

That is quite correct. And if HTC makes it possible for me to click a little box in the hangar and automatically have two wingmen flying with me when I hunt buffs, I'll not say anything more about the buff issue.

When I attack with bombers and the cons are high, I go higher and the poor guy that climbs up to meet me usually just wastes his time cause he finds himself in the tower because he doesnt know how to attack a flight of bombers.

Or he doesn't have any choice, because if he takes the time to do it correctly, the buffs will have already leveled the field.

BTW, I flew a formation of Ju-88s in the last FSO. I am not a buff flyer at all, although I do have experience shooting in flaks and field guns. With pea-shooters mind you, I was easily pinging attacking fighters badly enough to force them to set back up and come from angles where I had no gun coverage. With U.S. bombers and their .50s, I would probably have been KILLING fighters and they would have been out of luck for finding an angle where I had no guns.

Well, as it was, I was very glad to see the Yaks show up, as they saved me having to RTB the %@#% slow thing. I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone flying interceptor on the Russian side. 

EDIT: I just checked my stats from that event. I shot down TWO fighters, and I know I put some more out of the fight. With no experience, and a damned pea shooter armed Ju-88! 

[hitech]

With no experience, and a damned pea shooter armed Ju-88!

I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.

[LYNX]

by BnZ

Interesting how everyone ignores the point I brought up about the escort role being superfluous as things stands.

Not really.  Whats interesting in this game is the majority of guys are to fixated in their gunsite to even look up let alone to press Esc and look at the dar bars on the map.  When I fly bombers I never take an escort or request one the reason being most fighters will be lower than me and can't be bothered.  So why would I even need an escort.

by Anaxogoras

Something no one has pointed out:  Buff-hunting would be more fruitful if there were no 2x fuel burn multiplier.  As things are, climbing up to 20k+ to search for bombers leaves you little fuel in a lot of the good bomber killing aircraft, when patience counts for everything.

Never heard of drop tanks or taking 100% fuel?  If you can't read the map all the fuel in the world isn't going to help you.  You need to develop a sixth sense for buff hunting and there's no better experience than flying bombers to understand the tactics they use.....just a thought.

by BnZ

You are making the presupposition of time enough to 1. Get in position well above the buffs, 2. Make a front-quarter attack, which will put a large degree of horizontal separation between you and the buffs after the pass, and then get ahead of the buffs again for another such pass two more times before they reach their target.

That's 3 or 4 times you've mentioned this attack method....get this....it's not the best way.  I don't care who taught you.  If you want a set of bombers killed in double quick time there is only 1 best way....straight down or near to it as possible.  Fire early because you'll be doing close on or above 400MPH.  Aim for the cockpit or wing.  Extend forward then loop over for the repeat straight down and extend forward again.  To best appreciate this try and point b17's / b24's top turret straight up.....you can't.  Then try tracking / leading a 400 mph fighter ....very difficult.

by BnZ

I can only say that even using the "perfect" setup with all the time in the world I still RTB a plane too damaged to go play with fighters after I "do my duty" on Buffs all too often, and my experiences are far from unique.

Sorry chap, not getting pissy with you but your experience is flawed.  The above quote only tells me your getting it wrong....repeatedly. 

As for other quotes about "before they drop" well friend they got through...simple as that.  If you ain't got the alt or speed then you ain't got the alt or speed.  Your call to creep up slow on their 6 and take it in the face.  No one is forcing you to make that call except you.  Kill them after the drop if you want or just let them go but he can only get 2 fighter hangers per run.  Up to you if you take the time to get above him for his second and final pass.
 
by BnZ

If the speed and angle is giving the gunners a short, low% firing window, it is also giving YOU a short, low% firing window.

As I've already said aim for the head shot or wing.  If you can't hit a big, lumbering, slow, fat, bomber then worrying about bombers is the least of your problems.

From Oliver Twist in the words of studin (wordinator won't let me type the guys name fa gin) "shut up and drink your Gin" "review the situation" and where bombers are concerned "stay calm"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPpaplpgjaw

[Dadsguns]

You said "Whether the bombers LAND or not is unimportant. I won't even chase one that has expended its ords and is RTB. Whether or not they take out their target before being destroyed is what his whole thread has been about."

Landing is just as important to the pilot flying a bomber as well as a fighter especially if he has kills.  Don't use the "well he bails" after a run, since alot of guys do that in porking runs also but I assure you they wont when they rack up kills.

You have to come up with tactics to prevent them from destroying targets/base, example, pork ords, air cover, etc.  This is not just about two fighter planes frolicking in the sky kind of game, it brings the many dynamic aspects of Sea, Air, Land warfare, there are many logistical targets and preventable measure to deploy, if your not willing to do these things, then bombers will have their way.

It sounds to me you care only about the furball not about the capture or the win.  In my view, I am going for a capture in any means necessary, if you don't defend it, its a freebie, if you put up a fight and want a furball, I will go to your next weakest link, I will not fight your fight, I make them fight mine.  

[Dadsguns]

I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.

 

[LYNX]

SNIP
 you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.

Which really is the crux of the matter. 

[BaldEagl]

I didn't read all six pages but you've just got to learn how to attack buffs. 

A couple of camps ago I was around 10 K/D against the heavies with almost all those kills in a Spit XVI (I was at 24-0 against them at one point in the camp).  Last camp I had good numbers against buffs too while flying around 40 different aircraft, many against them (I even managed to kill 3 Lancasters with a Spit I on a single sortie).

[EDIT]  OK, so I got to the beginning of thte second page.  There is plenty of time to take out all three buffs before they reach their target.  First; Start high almost directly over the formation, roll inverted and begin to dive on them.  Once you have your angle set invert and pass through for kill #1.  Pull up almost vertical.  At the top, roll 180 degrees and pull back on the stick.  You are now inverted directly over the formation again.  Rinse and repeat and all three are gone in under a minute.

[BnZ]

I believe you just shot your self in the foot. By claiming to not have experience you have proven you really have not considered anything from the bombers side of things.

Ah, baloney. It shoots what these guys have say about the firepower available to a B-24 or B-17 being barely adequate out of the water when I shoot down 2 fighers and badly wound several more in one of the most poorly defended bombers in the game. And I'm a bad shot.

[BnZ]

[EDIT]  OK, so I got to the beginning of thte second page.  There is plenty of time to take out all three buffs before they reach their target.  First; Start high almost directly over the formation, roll inverted and begin to dive on them.  Once you have your angle set invert and pass through for kill #1.  Pull up almost vertical.  At the top, roll 180 degrees and pull back on the stick.  You are now inverted directly over the formation again.  Rinse and repeat and all three are gone in under a minute.

If the bombers are up to full speed, by the time you roll back over for pass #2 you are starting to fall into more of a 45 degree dive, less than ideal, and certainly you are getting into more of a six chase by the 3rd pass, and you are assuming a kill is achieved on every single pass.