Change engine damage modelling.....

[eddiek]

[Don]

>>>>I think this would help the game. The one who only want to go out and furrball still get to, but now they have to watch what they are doing more closely, cause if they get hit in the engine, they are not gonna be able to keep chasing or TnB. <<<<

Yeah, I would go for this too except,
-the MA or anywhere else in AH isn't real
-Tactics used by many in a furball deny the possibility of a person getting out and away from a fight
-Squad and country wide dynamics are very different from the real thing
-the Conga line effect didnt occur in real wartime situations

So, why should a guy get out of a fight if the nme won't let him and he has 5 or 6 nme in line after his arse as he dives away from a fight? Those 5 or 6 will leave a fight from 15k and dive down to 2k just to get the kill on one guy with a smoking engine.
Not to mention the poor sap's countrymen and/or squadmates who leave the guy on his own, knowing he is hit and needs help.

My position is, if the game conditions are one way (leaning more towards a lack of realism), then how can more realistic additions to the game help the game, or those who play it in a certain way?

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Don:
the Conga line effect didnt occur in real wartime situations

Saburo Sakai described seeing at least one of those involving 3 Hellcats and 4 A6M5s.  He said that he was cursing the pilots of all 7 aircraft, enemies and allies alike, for being idiots.

[Don]

>>>>Saburo Sakai described seeing at least one of those involving 3 Hellcats and 4 A6M5s. He said that he was cursing the pilots of all 7 aircraft, enemies and allies alike, for being idiots.<<<<

And they were In the main though, highly trained pilots were better disciplined than that, especially in the pacific theatre. Now the European theatre is a different story. Many accounts have it that bombers could rely on few bomber escorts to protect them by staying with them. There were P-51 groups that would dive away chasing nme fiters to get kills, leaving their charges alone and undefended. There were very few groups that had the discipline to stay with their wingmen or their assigned buff groups. Needless to say, they wound up dead or shot down.

[eddiek]

What point are you trying to make, Don?  Just curious.
When Doolittle arrived to take over the 8th AF, from what I recall reading, he decided the best way to eliminate the LW was hit them where they live.  In other words, when they made their hit and run attacks, instead of letting them go, and therefore live to fight another day, the escorts were free to chase them down and kill them.  Keeping the escorts tied to the bomber formations kept a few more bombers from getting shot down, but it also allowed the LW pilots more chances to make attacks on the bomber boxes.
In the book on JG26 I just finished, Adolf Galland was critical of the LW high command's early decision to keep the escorts close to the LW bomber during the BoB.  Keeping the escorts close automatically puts them in a defensive mode, and fighter planes are and should be an offensive weapon.
Back to the topic tho..................
It doesn't have to be a "Conga line" for this to work.   Heck, it rewards the pilot for even successful snapshots.  I have seen too many times planes that "should" be out of a fight keep going and going......from both sides of the coin, so I am not whining about it.
Example from RL that made me think about the damage model:
In the JG26 book, I read about some of their pilots getting into it with some Jugs.  Now, both sides knew that the Jug could outdive any LW fighter, IF the plane was able to get full power.  However, one of the Jugs took some rounds through the air ducting, resulting in less than full MAP, and the 190 pilot was able to stay with the Jug in the dive and shoot him down.
Knoke's account of his career in the LW told of several times he took hits to his engine that made it run rough, and he had to get out of Dodge.
I think the "furrball" fans will like it, purely on the premise that it would increase the need for good SA.  The guys who, like me, take time to set up their fights would like it, because you wouldn't have to blow a wing off, get a pilot kill,  etc. to get a kill.  A plane unable to fly at full power is no different than one with a missing 'vator, aileron, etc.......all I am suggesting is one more enhancement to the game, one that would affect ALL planes in the game, not just buffs, not just fighters.

[ergRTC]

From a post above >>>So, why should a guy get out of a fight if the nme won't let him and he has 5 or 6 nme in line after his arse as he dives away from a fight? Those 5 or 6 will leave a fight from 15k and dive down to 2k just to get the kill on one guy with a smoking engine.<<<

and I thought this happened just because I was a bad pilot!  WOw maybe trying to pick the battles, and only getting into fights I have a chance of getting out of was a mistake!  

When you are furballing in your spit 9 at 2k, you are never intending on being able to "get out".  It may happen if your enemy stay out numbered and distracted, but If I am at 15k and I see a non smoking spit or la7 at 2k rtbing, I go for the kill.  Rarely get it of course, but still that is screaming 'kill me now please' smoke or no smoke.

more accurate engine damage modeling would really add to this game.  Its fun too, nothing gets the heart racing more than a sputtering engine when you are in the thick of it.   Many times I have limped a plane with parts of wings, or no rudder back to the base from a fairly heavy furball, and many times I get toasted on the way, but that makes it fun.

[Don]

Originally posted by eddiek
What point are you trying to make, Don?  Just curious.
]

EddieK:

The point I'm making has to do with the apparent clamor on these BBs for "more realism". For me, it seems more like its a wish for a certain set of conditions which are more comfortable for some, yet not for others. The example I used about the Bomber escorts, not escorting was perhaps sort of abstract, forgive me:) I was trying to point out that in the mA or in online sims period, people fly the way they want to or the way that allows them to get what they want out of the game. In WW2 many P-51 pilits went after the high scores, the Bomber crews just wanted to get home alive. Regardless of what Jimmy Doolittle decided, not everyone was happy with the decision.
I have noticed that some prefer few icons, others prefer no icons or radar or anything; for them that would be "real" . Modeled engine damage would be useful IMO but, as it is right now it doesnt work and may never have the effect that is intended, mainly because of the conditions the players make in the arenas.
I also think perhaps that some bugs may seem as regular aspects of the game, and therefore become "unreal" in the eyes of some who play. If so, then they ought to be a differnt topic.
You quote people who were in actual circumstances which I don't have an issue with. But to compare real world situations and apply them to a virtual environment is a bit before its time IMO:D

[Don]

Originally posted by ergRTC
and I thought this happened just because I was a bad pilot!  WOw maybe trying to pick the battles, and only getting into fights I have a chance of getting out of was a mistake!  

more accurate engine damage modeling would really add to this game.  Its fun too, nothing gets the heart racing more than a sputtering engine when you are in the thick of it.   [/B]

ergRTC:

I don't doubt that this may have happened for you;)
And if you were the one who had a damaged engine and tried to dive away and were unable to because your engine seized up in the dive, would that be enjoyable? If so, then I have no quarrel with that, you would be one of perhaps many who would see this as an enhancement to the game. Maybe what I described would cease to occur in either of the arenas (MA,CT), and pilits would fly "more realistically".  As it is, from what I see, it aint happening.
I saw one comment in another thread which stated that the MA is "relaxed realism" ; consistent with the push by some to move to the Combat arena I suppose. I went to the CA one night when the server went belly up. I flew several hops and saw much the same there that I saw in the MA. Conga lines, alt monkees and low alt furballing.  So, what was the difference I asked? I realised it was the lack of icons close in. Hehe, I didnt miss em while I was there and wasn't affected by the lack of them. I took 3 hops and had multiple kills on each hop.  No difference and yet, to hear it told, the CT is much more challenging than the MA.
I think there ought to be a greater clamor and more support for fixing the bugs, and bad conns in the game.
I know that when my engine is hit, it will eventually die. I also know that with certain hits my engine will simply cut out. This has happended on many occassions. Maybe if it isn't now, then perhaps it is a bug and not an aspect that was left out of the game.

[AmRaaM]

I worked on powerplants for 8 years on everything piston-turbins up to 2000+ horse units.  Oil lines damaged dont always mean your eng. is going to sieze up immediatly, infact for anywhere up to a few minutes some engines will increase in horsepower due to the reduced friction  (oil viscosity)don't believe it, dump your car eng oil and start it up and watch your tach jump up. You're also talking alot of oil in some of these engines not just 4.5 quarts like a 22r toyota. As far as fuel goes, your fuel lines get hit between the eng and the tanks, then you're in deep doodoo pretty fast, your fuel tanks get hit and starts dumping fuel, well pretty obvious that your eng will die out once the fuel level reaches "bottom" but not likely before it reaches bottom. There are alot of oil lines that can be damaged and will have varying affects upon  the output or running state of the eng. ie booster feed lines, power transfer clutches, ect. what you can easily have with a oil line strike is a fire since almost all the oil lines are under pressure and will spray hot oil on even hotter exhaust which in turn is fanned by the airflow, makes for quite a blowtorch.
My sister drove her vw home from Sears once, almost 6 miles away and 7 traffic lights with the oil drain plug sitting in the oil dump tub in the service bay in Sears automotive center, the idiot filled the eng up with oil but it just ran out the sump becuase he forgot to put the plug back in. The whole time she was wondering what the red "idiot light" was on for. I explained where the term "idiot light" came from to her.