Author Topic: I Love Yank airplanes  (Read 1600 times)

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2008, 03:49:39 AM »
I love the trajectory of the 50 cal.  Sure it takes more round to take down an A/C, but it's so gratifying to watch all those hit sprites as you pull a lead on an enemy...
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Offline bj229r

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2008, 05:54:17 PM »
Had not the P47N come out, I'd have quit the game
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Offline iTunes

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 10:10:26 AM »
The "large hole" you describe cannot possibly be correct, I think the Italian and Russian crate drivers will have a line or two to say about that.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 04:21:18 PM »
The "large hole" you describe cannot possibly be correct, I think the Italian and Russian crate drivers will have a line or two to say about that.

Yeah gee, I actually saw one I-talian plane in the MA yesterday. First one I saw in months. As for Russian crates I thought the unwashed mob considered LAs persona non-grata. We do need a Russian level bomber tho. Ive been saying that for months.

Tho Russian bombers couldn't hold a candle to Yanks ones. We used bombers to annihilate countries. They used them to support infantry.

So I guess another perk bomber like the A-26 isn't needed right? :huh Or the B-29 whose contribution to the war only included annihilating an entire society. Anyway...bring on the hangar Queens.
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 12:52:16 AM »
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Tho Russian bombers couldn't hold a candle to Yanks ones. We used bombers to annihilate countries. They used them to support infantry.

The USAAC bomber raids were focused towards pressuring the strato-economical conditions of the Third Reich, but their direct impact on the German war machine is still a subject of debate. One thing for certain, is that the bomber streams hardly "annihilated" a country, nor even severely reduce its overall production, as your traditionalist (or rather, "Cold-war") point of view would suggest.

It is a reasonable assumption that (considering the general technological inferiority, and difference in existing priorities) the USSR would probably never would have been able to produce such excellent heavy bombers like the B-17 or the B-24. However, the raw power of the VVS in both tactical interdiction and CAS roles is hardly anything to be belittled, and certainly not just "support infantry".


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So I guess another perk bomber like the A-26 isn't needed right?

Not unless you consider a country planeset that has no planes entered squadron service before 1943 as having "less holes", than a planeset of a country that entered the War 6 months later and began to present itself as a powerful force in the ETO 2 years after that, which is is already thoroughly represented in every theater of operations and era between 1941 to 1945.


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Or the B-29 whose contribution to the war only included annihilating an entire society. Anyway...bring on the hangar Queens.

Stop confusing what the bomb did with what the bomber did. Although the B-29 holds some meaning as an exceptionally long ranged bomber which could directly strike the Japanese mainland from far away bases, overall, the significance of B-29s to the entire War that raged for 5 years between 1939 to 1945, is negligible at best.


Offline Rich46yo

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 06:17:35 AM »
Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, Düsseldorf, Cologne, 23 of Germany largest urban center had, at minimum, at least 60% destruction. We killed at least 600,000 German civilians and industrial workers. And that was just the cities. Add in the rail system, the river system, road transport, airfields...ect

Beginning in the end of 1943 Allied bombing began a campaign to largely destroy German society and the effects of it were devastating, even if tough to qualify, and even tougher to ethically justify. But I suppose one can if you take into account Germany's own bombing of civilians and even worse sins.

Again, the allies bomber war forced the Germans to commit a huge amount of resources to defend against the onslaught. In June 1940 the Luftwaffe used 0% of its airplanes against Yank and Brit bombers. By June of 1944 that number was 29%. And by January of 1945 50% of Luftwaffe airplanes were committed to the western bomber war. Yes its true Germany made remarkable gains in Industrial production but did they do so in spite of the bombers? Or did they do so due to the unprecedented transforming of an entire economy to a war footing utilizing a vast pool of slave labor and materials from conquered territories? And again I ask imagine the production goals they would have met if there were no daylight bomber streams aiming at the heart of their war machine?

I will also introduce the concept that the allies didn't focus their strategic weapon properly. Instead of zeroing in on one or two rings of the Nazi Industrial chain they overstretched their targeting and ended up dropping to few eggs on to many targets. later in the war as they focused on German fuel production the real capability of strategic bombing began to be realized. Remember this was an entirely new type of war and we were trying to figure out the plan as we were fighting it. And we would have been better off having a Bomber Harris running the USAAC in Europe because there were to many voices being heard regarding targeting. Harris didn't tolerate any meddling. His intent was to level German cities and only very rarely did anyone else in British command get a say so as to where the British strategic Juggernaut was aimed.

Even still, and dont forget, Yank strategic bombing was in large part responsible for the breakout from Normandy.

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Not unless you consider a country planeset that has no planes entered squadron service before 1943 as having "less holes", than a planeset of a country that entered the War 6 months later and began to present itself as a powerful force in the ETO 2 years after that, which is is already thoroughly represented in every theater of operations and era between 1941 to 1945.


Your talking what? Italy? Hey its a free country and you have as much right as I to ask for a bomber or a plane set. But I do ask you who in heck is going to fly an Italian bomber? Still there are a few Italian airplanes of interest that should be considered.

Its estimated the B-29s of the 20'th air force destroyed at least 1/2 of Japanese fighter industrial production which resulted in a net loss of about 7,000 combat planes never being built. By the end of the war 4,000 B-29s had been built. In the 15 months they were operational in Asia they caused significant damage to every major city in Japan, played a very effective role in the blockade of japan with their mine laying sorties, destroyed over 600 major military and industrial targets in Japan.... I have to go to work, I'll research the exact sortie number for the bomber when i get home.

Its impact in the war was huge. There is no doubt of that. :salute

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 08:02:37 AM »
Add in the rail system, the river system, road transport, airfields...ect

ETO infrastructure was predominantly attacked with Typhoons, Mossies, Hurris, Jugs etc and numerous light bombers, not massed heavy bomber raids...
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 08:41:16 AM »
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Dresden, Berlin, Hamburg, Düsseldorf, Cologne, 23 of Germany largest urban center had, at minimum, at least 60% destruction. We killed at least 600,000 German civilians and industrial workers. And that was just the cities. Add in the rail system, the river system, road transport, airfields...ect

...and yet you casually leave out the war time efforts of the RAF and its Bomber Command - as if above mentioned doctrine of area bombing against civilian targets was led by the USAAF - which, it wasn't.


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Beginning in the end of 1943 Allied bombing began a campaign to largely destroy German society and the effects of it were devastating, even if tough to qualify, and even tougher to ethically justify. But I suppose one can if you take into account Germany's own bombing of civilians and even worse sins.

...and yet the USAAF never officially recognized the Lindemann approach to the theory of offensive bombing. Although practical difficulties has forced the USAAF bomber campaigns to be more "flexible" in the choice of targets, the official doctrine maintained was still the daylight precision raids to the purpose of directly disabling the enemy's industrial capacity - which may be considered largely a failure since the acceleration of wartime production of the Third Reich reached its peak long after the first USAAF bomber raids were carried out against Germany, instead of declining.

Only after the depletion of critical fuel and pilot resources after a long period of forced attrition - which was never the intended, primary purpose of such bombing raids - did the German warmachine came to a grinding halt, after total loss off air superiority and the Russians closing in towards Berlin.


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Again, the allies bomber war forced the Germans to commit a huge amount of resources to defend against the onslaught. In June 1940 the Luftwaffe used 0% of its airplanes against Yank and Brit bombers. By June of 1944 that number was 29%. And by January of 1945 50% of Luftwaffe airplanes were committed to the western bomber war.

This is a yet another weird logic. On average more than 80% of both the air force and ground forces were always tied up in the East, which would logically imply the relative success of the bombing operations of the Western Allies were only possible through a bulk of the Geramn armed forces not being able to respond to the threat due to being tied up by the Russians. The tide of the war was already shifting towards the Red Army before June 1944, which fact even gives rise to some conspiracy theorists that D-Day was planned in haste to halt the total domination of Axis Europe by the Soviets.

Your definition of "successful bomber raids" keeps shrinking with every new paragraph. At first you imply its scope was THE main driving force behind the defeat of Nazi Germany through means of "annihilating countries", and then it shrinks to "destroying societies" which as a matter of fact the RAF were more involved with rather than the USAAF, and now its merely worth "allocation of considerable resources", which percentage never exceeds to the regular amoung of resources allocated, and constant depleted, by the efforts of the Red Army.


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Yes its true Germany made remarkable gains in Industrial production but did they do so in spite of the bombers? Or did they do so due to the unprecedented transforming of an entire economy to a war footing utilizing a vast pool of slave labor and materials from conquered territories?

Irrelevant. In the end, the prime directive of the strategic bombing operations is effectively a failure if it cannot achieve its main objective of shutting down industrial capacity of the enemy nation.


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And again I ask imagine the production goals they would have met if there were no daylight bomber streams aiming at the heart of their war machine?

Good question.

Now imagine if the daylight bomber operations would even survive long enough to be refined and reach tactical finesse - if ALL of the Axis aerial power was concentrated against the West.


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I will also introduce the concept that the allies didn't focus their strategic weapon properly. Instead of zeroing in on one or two rings of the Nazi Industrial chain they overstretched their targeting and ended up dropping to few eggs on to many targets. later in the war as they focused on German fuel production the real capability of strategic bombing began to be realized. Remember this was an entirely new type of war and we were trying to figure out the plan as we were fighting it. And we would have been better off having a Bomber Harris running the USAAC in Europe because there were to many voices being heard regarding targeting. Harris didn't tolerate any meddling. His intent was to level German cities and only very rarely did anyone else in British command get a say so as to where the British strategic Juggernaut was aimed.

True.

So why are you giving credit the USAAF when it should be given to the RAF?



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Even still, and dont forget, Yank strategic bombing was in large part responsible for the breakout from Normandy.

Would there be a Normandy without the Soviets?


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Your talking what? Italy? Hey its a free country and you have as much right as I to ask for a bomber or a plane set. But I do ask you who in heck is going to fly an Italian bomber? Still there are a few Italian airplanes of interest that should be considered.

Er.. right.  :huh


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Its estimated the B-29s of the 20'th air force destroyed at least 1/2 of Japanese fighter industrial production which resulted in a net loss of about 7,000 combat planes never being built. By the end of the war 4,000 B-29s had been built. In the 15 months they were operational in Asia they caused significant damage to every major city in Japan, played a very effective role in the blockade of japan with their mine laying sorties, destroyed over 600 major military and industrial targets in Japan.... I have to go to work, I'll research the exact sortie number for the bomber when i get home.

Its impact in the war was huge. There is no doubt of that

Impact against a nation which the US only allocated around 20% of its military capacity as a total, which entered a 3 year long process of defeat since Midway?


Offline BaldEagl

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 08:50:10 AM »
I just watched a film on the FW190 a few weeks ago.  The 190 was produced piecemeal in small boutique production facilities throughout Germany with the components shipped and quickly assembled.  These small factories were virtually unidentifyable.  As a result, the allied bombing campaign had little to no effect on FW190 production.  This was another of Kurt Tank's ideas.
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 09:54:05 AM »
Would there be a Normandy without the Soviets?

I would say that yes there would have been a cross channel invasion regardless of the situation on the eastern front at the time.  From what I've read, U.S. planners argued for an invasion of mainland Europe as early as I believe '43 (at office so going from memory) and it was after a lot of heated debate that Churchill and the british war staff that got the nod from FDR to open up the Mediterrainean Theatre and launch an invaision of North Africa.  Considering the problems the allies had during that campaign I think a invasion of France any earlier would have been disaster.  But it was always the desire of the U.S. Army to attack Germany in the most direct fashion. 
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Offline Widewing

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »

Would there be a Normandy without the Soviets?

Would there have been a Soviet Union in 1944 without Lend-Lease? Probably not.

I believe that the single most important factor was the massive Lend-Lease program that kept the Soviets in the war. Without Lend-Lease, the probability of the Soviet Union surviving into or perhaps through 1943 was bleak.


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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 05:48:52 PM »
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...and yet you casually leave out the war time efforts of the RAF and its Bomber Command - as if above mentioned doctrine of area bombing against civilian targets was led by the USAAF - which, it wasn't.


Please read my post again. Obviously you hurried thru it. Here, I'll help you....
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And we would have been better off having a Bomber Harris running the USAAF in Europe because there were to many voices being heard regarding targeting. Harris didn't tolerate any meddling. His intent was to level German cities and only very rarely did anyone else in British command get a say so as to where the British strategic Juggernaut was aimed.

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Would there be a Normandy without the Soviets?
I dont understand this statement or realize its relevance. Had we listened to the Soviets Normandy would have happened in '43 and would have failed.

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Would there have been a Soviet Union in 1944 without Lend-Lease? Probably not.

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I believe that the single most important factor was the massive Lend-Lease program that kept the Soviets in the war. Without Lend-Lease, the probability of the Soviet Union surviving into or perhaps through 1943 was bleak.

While lend lease was important I have found that westerners tend to overestimate the impact it had in comparison to actual Soviet Industrial production, "which is even more remarkable when one figures in the fact so much of the industry was displaced and had to be reassembled". Probably the biggest impact lend lease had was the trucks we sent the Soviets which greatly increased the mobility of their army and ability to quickly mobilize entire new Divisions the Germans never even knew were there. That and also food stuffs. Like the actual impact of strategic bombing the impact of lend lease lies in the murky environment of individual point of view. What cant be questioned is the fact that actual Soviet Industrial production was a remarkable story and saved them far more then lend lease did. No I dont have the actual statistics handy and by no means do I undervalue the importance of lend lease to the Soviet war effort. At a critical time lend lease was there for them but its a stretch to say it "saved them".

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I would say that yes there would have been a cross channel invasion regardless of the situation on the eastern front at the time.  From what I've read, U.S. planners argued for an invasion of mainland Europe as early as I believe '43 (at office so going from memory) and it was after a lot of heated debate that Churchill and the British war staff that got the nod from FDR to open up the Mediterranean Theater and launch an invasion of North Africa.  Considering the problems the allies had during that campaign I think a invasion of France any earlier would have been disaster.  But it was always the desire of the U.S. Army to attack Germany in the most direct fashion.


Actually American planners hated the idea of a cross channel attack in '43 and fought against it tooth and nail. Give credit to the Brits because they understood the importance of the Mediterranean and North Africa where'as Hitler didn't. They understood the importance of the MidEast as well where'as Hitler didn't. The Allies simply weren't ready for an invasion of Western Europe in 1943 and it was a thorn that didn't sit well with Stalin, whose paranoia regarding western resolve didn't ease until the last year of the war. We weren't ready and would have suffered terrible casualties in a failed effort against an already battle hardened German military. Even worse the Logistical elements needed to support the invasion weren't yet sufficient. The North Atlantic sea lanes were still contested, the Luftwaffe hadn't been whittled down enough yet, and the southern flank was not yet secured. A 1943 invasion of France was simply a no-go!

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and yet the USAAF never officially recognized the Lindemann approach to the theory of offensive bombing. Although practical difficulties has forced the USAAF bomber campaigns to be more "flexible" in the choice of targets, the official doctrine maintained was still the daylight precision raids to the purpose of directly disabling the enemy's industrial capacity - which may be considered largely a failure since the acceleration of wartime production of the Third Reich reached its peak long after the first USAAF bomber raids were carried out against Germany, instead of declining.

Only after the depletion of critical fuel and pilot resources after a long period of forced attrition - which was never the intended, primary purpose of such bombing raids - did the German war machine came to a grinding halt, after total loss off air superiority and the Russians closing in towards Berlin.


Sure it was. There were loud shrieks to specifically target the German fuel pipeline almost from the beginning of the bomber war. There was constant infighting regarding targeting in USAAF not just of what strategic targets but also whether to even bomb strategically or utilize the bomber force more for tactical objectives. I would say the loss of Romanian oil coupled with the Yank bombing offensive on the coal based fuel pipeline doomed the German war machine. All this would have crippled Germany earlier had Harris came on board but he was intent on annihilating German cities. We must also all agree on the fact that this entire doctrine of strategic bombing was being created, tested, tinkered with, and evolving, all at the same time. It was the very dawn of the doctrine itself.

I would say that the doctrine itself never failed and that simply the execution of it sometimes did. In the last year of the war we saw the doctrine evolve into a war winning weapon. In that heavy bombers, escorted by advanced long range fighters capable of at least winning local air superiority, accurately targeting a critical industrial component, "be it fuel, ball bearings...ect", which would cause a devastating ripple effect on enemy Industrial production and thus would shorten the war. It didn't come off quite so perfectly as we know the escort Jabos did far more damage to the Luftwaffe when loosed on their own, as compared to when escorting. But still the theory became sound and strategic bombing had come of age in the last year of the war. In both Germany and Japan. Just because we cant say exactly how effective it was doesn't mean we cant say it was effective.

It certainly was effective. Not only in targets destroyed but also in effect opening what could be called an entire front that the enemy had to pour precious resources into the defense of .

Thank you. :salute


« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 05:54:21 PM by Rich46yo »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: I Love Yank airplanes
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2008, 11:42:34 AM »
Would there have been a Soviet Union in 1944 without Lend-Lease? Probably not.

I believe that the single most important factor was the massive Lend-Lease program that kept the Soviets in the war. Without Lend-Lease, the probability of the Soviet Union surviving into or perhaps through 1943 was bleak.


My regards,

Widewing


Over 50% of lend/lease did not arrive in the USSR until after mid 1944.