Do you dump flaps going over the top?

[PFactorDave]

Sliceback maneuver?


ack-ack

Possibly, can you describe how it is performed and what it looks like? Thanks.

[uberslet]

As to rudder I use a twisty stick and it's just become second nature.  I know I use rudder quite a bit but really can't tell you when or why as it's just instinctual at this point.

same here, now when i lose my rudder i cant so much as hit the broad side of a barn 

[Ack-Ack]

Possibly, can you describe how it is performed and what it looks like? Thanks.

The Sliceback Maneuver

The Sliceback is an evil manoeuvre, a dirty trick to pull on a bandit who’s comfortably on
your long six o’clock. It comprises a gentle zoom with an aggressive skid near the top
followed by a nose-low opposite rudder reversal to bring you near head-on with your highly
rattled pursuer. You will need quite a bit of separation for this move since you burn a lot of
energy in the reversal – don’t try it if the bandit is anywhere near guns range. It is best
employed by a fighter with high wingloading and considerable rudder authority, in a situation
where a flat or oblique turn would most likely give the enemy a full planform snapshot. The
manoeuvre requires a good deal of rudder-aileron coordination and should not be attempted
without first having perfected the technique. The “trick” is to mask the airspeed decrease
with the low speed skid – the follow-up rudder reversal usually comes as a nasty shock.
The sliceback is useful in a standard dogfight as well. If you're energy-rich but
angles-poor in a turning fight, the reflexive behaviour is to honk back on the stick and bleed
energy to stay with the bandit. This leads without fault to black-out from excessive gravity
loads, to loss of visual contact and sacrifice of the energy advantage. A more cautious pilot
will normally zoom in the bandit’s rear hemisphere and roll his lift vector onto him for a
high yo-yo. While this is certainly good in most cases, it’s time-consuming and thus allows
the bandit a respite during which angles are lost. The outcome is generally a nose-to-nose
fight where either or both will succumb to head-on shots or collision.
In this situation it is far better to use the vertical and a bit of rudder work. E.g. in a
left turning fight where you have an energy advantage on a bandit who's breaking hard to
left, you nose up and skid right (top rudder) with a bit of left aileron to counter the roll, then
rudder hard to left, nose low while adding a bit of right aileron. This is a sort of vertical lag
displacement sliceback which doesn't cost you much energy and which gives you a low yo-yo
snapshot at the bandit (who sustains his left turn). Follow it up with another high sliceback if
he keeps up his turn, and with a steep barrel roll (canopy to bandit) if he reverses.

In Pursuit: A Pilot’s Guide to Online Air Combat
You'll need to have a .pdf reader installed to read the above book.  Although it's essentially the same with the exception of a few updated sections, I recommend purchasing the bound version if you find the free .pdf version helpful.


ack-ack

[uptown]

Thanks for the read Ack-Ack 

[Murdr]

I wonder if I might redirect a bit.

I have run across occaisional foes who seem to reverse directions very rapidly after the initial merge.  I wonder what techniques they are using to get the nose around so quickly.   Is it that they are scrubbing off speed pre-merge to get down to a much better turning speed perhaps?

I am asking simply because there are some pilots who consistantly get into a firing position on me, even on occaisions when I am flying an aircraft that should be able to out turn theirs.

I understand that there are a ton of variables that play into the moves that you make, I guess I'm looking to distill it down to as simple of a starting position as I possibly can, then carry the conversation into the more complex.

Without a further description, my initial reaction to your post is they are both beating you for position, and executing a pre-turn at the merge.  The geometry of which is touched on in this article.

[PFactorDave]

Without a further description, my initial reaction to your post is they are both beating you for position, and executing a pre-turn at the merge.  The geometry of which is touched on in this article.

I'm not really talking about a particular instance, per se.  Which is why I haven't put any film up.  I was hoping to get a discussion started about merge tactics.  One of those rare discussions where we get an insight from some of the experienced sticks.

Thanks for the link to the Trainers site, I'll re-read that and refresh my memory.

[Mace2004]

The common perception is that flaps always both give and take away but there is a little more to it.  They give by increasing lift at the cost of increased induced drag; however, you have to consider total drag.  Yes, lift always causes induced drag; however, this is irrelevant at or near the stall limit since flow separation (the beginning of a wing stall) generates even more drag than the induced drag from the flaps.  This is what causes many people to get "parked" at the top of the loop, they bring the airplane up and over, begin to stall (the airflow begins to separate from the wing), the flow separation drastically increases drag and the airplane just sort of stops.  By dropping flaps, you increase the ability of the wing to continue to develop lift with less increase in total drag so you maintain more speed and can more easily pitch the nose over.  This is also why some planes have a "maneuvering flaps" setting and are usually fought with the flaps down one notch.  The P38 and P51 are a couple good examples where the flap limits are high and you may want to just leave them at one notch where the airplane's average drag during a hard maneuvering fight is lower and the turn rate and overall ability to sustain e is improved.   Also, this applies when you're near the stall limit, you should always raise the flaps otherwise.

Generally speaking, if you're coming over the top at anything less than corner velocity use at least one notch of flaps (provided they'll come down, remember maximum flap speeds differ for each of the airplanes.)  Think of it as whether you're riding the edge of stall (stall limited) or riding the edge of blackout (G limited).  If you're stall limited use a notch of flaps (again, if they'll come down at your speed).  The slower you are, the more flaps you can use (if you need more) but then get them back up again as soon as your nose is below the horizon and you're accelerating.  Even on airplanes without intermittant flap settings such as Spits and Hurri's you can still start the flaps down as you get near the top and then toggle them right back up again as your nose goes below the horizon (their flaps usually move so slowly that they never get below one-quarter to half-flaps before they're coming back up again.)

Last, it should be obvious that flaps need to be mapped to your stick so do that if your stick has the buttons.  Most good pilots will be constantly working those puppies up and down throughout a fight and you can't do that well if you're constantly searching for a keyboard button.

[Bubbajj]

I think I may be seeing the same thing PF is seeing. I'll be in a lagg pursuit at the bottom of a roll and follow the bogey up, as I start to turn into them, it appears they stop at the top and pivot almost directly into me. I see this a lot with F4U's, Spixteens and KI 84s. I'd love to be able to figure this out. All I seem to be able to do at the top of a roll is wallow.

[Mace2004]

I think I may be seeing the same thing PF is seeing. I'll be in a lagg pursuit at the bottom of a roll and follow the bogey up, as I start to turn into them, it appears they stop at the top and pivot almost directly into me. I see this a lot with F4U's, Spixteens and KI 84s. I'd love to be able to figure this out. All I seem to be able to do at the top of a roll is wallow.

What you're apparently descrbing is a vertical reversal.  Basically you go up as in a loop but instead of continuing in the same plane and pulling over the top to make the loop you go pure vertical and then reverse to come straight back down (or at least it appears that way).

There are a couple of ways you can do this.  When going vertical, roll 180deg (or whatever's necessary to put your lift vector where you want it) and immediately pull back down.  From the side the airplane will make an S shape laying on it's side (rather than the O of a loop); however, the upper part of the S is much tighter than the lower part because G is working with you to keep a very tight radius.  This type of reversal is typical of a vertical scissors. 

Another way to change directions quickly is the rudder reversal where you again start by going vertical and, once slow (typically about 100mph or less) put in a bootful of rudder to yaw the nose over.  This works best in the direction of your normal torque.  Usually, because of torque and a small amount of differential lift on the wings you don't get a pure yaw turn (called a hammerhead in aerobatics) but instead the airplane will also roll.  This is sometimes called a pirouette and when it's done correctly the plane will come back down the same flight path it went up.  You'll see the rudder reversal a lot in rope maneuvers

[sidey]

intersting discussion,, i have recently, (after 1.5yrs) turned off stall limiter  (waits for everyone to stop laughing) .. i used to use flaps and trim all the time,,, but since removing the stall limiter i have found myself hardly using them at all.. once i figure out the limitations of a particular ride, i am turning harder without flaps and trim than with it. Also E retention is greatly improved, thus my point to post originator is check if your stall limiter is on or off,, this will be affecting your E status in Co E fights and possibly were your opponent is finding the edge in turns etc. Just a thought as i have RE- NOOBED myself by changing this setting and am finding it a healthy challenge in Aces.