Icons and Radar

[funked]

IMHO The inflight AWACS display and 5 mile IFF and laser range finder are not appropriate for a WW2 sim.  In WW2, pilots had to get INTO the fight before being able to make IFF distinctions and estimate enemy numbers in most theatres.  In our game one can figure out all this stuff even before making visual contact!

Here is an alternative scheme:

Icons:
1.  No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2.  At 4,500 yards start a range number.
3.  At 2,500 yards add type ID.
4.  No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards.

This still gives us significantly more capability than a WW2 pilot, but it's closer than the current system.

In-Flight Radar:
1.  No individual plane blips, ever.
2.  Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar.  If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar.
3.  Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station.

Again, the proposed system is still beyond the capabilities of WW2 pilots and aircraft, but less so than the current system.

Now I can understand if HTC wants to retain the current system in the Main Arena in order to make the game easier for newbies.  I won't like it, but I can accept it.  But please make it possible for CM's to set up the SEA or other arenas and try out schemes like I have described above.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-07-2000).]

[Gadfly]

Do that or something real similar, and you will have my 30 per back, I promise.

Lizking

[popeye]

"2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar."

I'd say keep the sector counters, they simulate the whole radar/observer network, and are key to finding a fight.  Just increase the time between updates.

popeye

[juzz]

Simplest solution is to just pull the "dots".

btw, is there a write-up of what all the arena commands do? I think theres about 15 settings for radar!

[funked]

...But sadly only 2 settings for icons.

[Toad]

I'm totally in favor of experimenting with the icons. Right now, they are a bit overdone. Here's a few of my previously posted thoughts...I haven't changed my mind much since then.


Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.

Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.

1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.

2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.

This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.

3. As range further decreased, some kind of "fighter" ID should show that would be different from a bomber. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.

4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Absolutely cut out range info inside of 1k (essentially max guns range). You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.

5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life but not on a monitor.

Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.

I hope we do experiment!

[Gadfly]

Well, it doen't look to be a real hot button issue here Funked.  Ah, well.


Lizking

[Baddawg]

What more needs to be said ? By all means im for experimentation.  

[Rocket]

It would be a pain but sector dots could be used IF there were friendly planes in the area.  You could have a key mapped to notify field of enemy.  IE I find a group of enemy headed to the field I alt-N to radio location back to aircontroller so it can be broadcast to all other planes.  
If you don't radio it in to the controller it doesn't get posted. If you get killed with no other friendlies around then the info is gone.
Would be a pain in the bellybutton to code I am sure but would be the realistic way to do it.


S!
Rocket

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With Honour and Courage
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 www.reddragons.de

[Gadfly]

If we are experimenting, lets try this:

Radar towers on fields and scattered about, like the ETO in WB.  Make the range about 5 miles MAX(to compensate for map scale).

Inflight you can see the dots from your country's CLOSEST radar, as long as they are not bombed out.

For icons, I like friendly icons out to about 2 miles, enemy icons the same.  Enemy icons dissappear at about 1000 yards, friendly count out in 10 yard increments inside 500 yards.

The icon should be a colored icon of the country, red for enemy, green for friendly.  It's size should vary in inverse relation to the apparent size of the plane, shrinking away totally at 1000 yards for enemy and changing into a range counter/name/plane type at 500 yards for friendlies.

Friendly Names, plane type, etc, should be toggle-able on your system.

CM's should be able to set 'em all.


Lizking

[popeye]

Nevermind...

popeye


[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Just curious, why do you dislike the dots?  Is it because you can't jump someone without them knowing it?  Or because your bomber/Jabo formations can be seen from miles away?

Historically, you had a primitive radar and ground observers plotting every move of 2 or more enemy fighters (unless they went under radar) so, the dots seem realistic to me, since German pilots had radios, the the ground plotters had the ability to report as the formations moved in.  Thus, the information could have been transferred to the pilot, no?  They have cut the fat off (ground observers) and given us in-flight "ground observer" points  on a map, big deal!

[SpyHawk]

Hey, I really like that .vector idea

Historically radar gave a good idea of enemy altitude as well. The automated response could give that info "PlayerX your neerest bandit is at 2-7-4, angles 3-5 for 15, over."

[Tac]

Funked made a good suggestion... however, I would add/change the following:

1. No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2. At 4,500 yards start a range number. (but no red or green color!!!)
3. At 2,500 yards add type ID. (color comes in as well)
4. No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards. <---I disagree with this one. This would result in a lot of midair collisions during scissors or other evasives.


1. No individual plane blips, ever. (Agreed, but I do want to see dots when the planes are near a field.)

2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar. (YES!)
3. Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station. (yep!)

[SpyHawk]

Yes, please keep the range counter from (at least) 4500 all the way in to zero. When my monitor gets stereoscopic vision, then we can talk about taking oway the range counters.

I still agree with the whole premis that having to fly using a 2d monitor takes soo much oway from your ability to percieve information visually that the icons are necessary.

Mark my words, if they take oway the icons, they WILL loose customers. Not saying I would leave, but I would bet my bottom dollar on it.

 

Originally posted by Tac:
Funked made a good suggestion... however, I would add/change the following:

1. No icons beyond 4,500 yards.
2. At 4,500 yards start a range number. (but no red or green color!!!)
3. At 2,500 yards add type ID. (color comes in as well)
4. No range number for bandits within 1,000 yards. <---I disagree with this one. This would result in a lot of midair collisions during scissors or other evasives.


1. No individual plane blips, ever. (Agreed, but I do want to see dots when the planes are near a field.)

2. Sector counter bars only in those sectors which have radar. If you knock out the radar, that sector loses the counter bar. (YES!)
3. Add a .vector command which gives a heading and distance to the nearest enemy aircraft within range of a friendly radar station. (yep!)