Its tested, Hispano is too powerful tank killer

[leonid]

Wow.  You guys must be good with the hispanos.  The last few times I attacked a tank in a Tiffy I needed to make about 6-9 passes to take out a tank.  One attack all I did was take out a track.  The other was after numerous passes, and I finally came up its rear agl and fired away until 300-400yds.  Both times I made many hits.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by leonid:
Wow.  You guys must be good with the hispanos.  The last few times I attacked a tank in a Tiffy I needed to make about 6-9 passes to take out a tank.  One attack all I did was take out a track.  The other was after numerous passes, and I finally came up its rear agl and fired away until 300-400yds.  Both times I made many hits.

Try F4u C next time  

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:

The results:
1 - 190A8 was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards. These hits didn't down the F4U, but one aileron and one flap broken.
2 and 3 - F4U was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards.
These hits downed the F4U: Fuel tank and both ailerons.
4 - Three passes needed to kill the tank. Few hits per pass.
5 - A lot of passes, a lot of hits per pass, no way to kill the panzer. After spending much more than the normal loadout of the 190A8, both tracks were disable on the tank.
6 - Same as 5, but no damage at all.
7 - Three hits on 'B' key, three bursts needed to cut the wing of the B17 (about 9 flashes).
8 - Two hits on 'B' key. First burst killing one B17 engine. Second burst cutting B17 wing (about 6 flashes).

<COUGH COUGH> er...
<COUGH COUGH> umm...
<COUGH COUGH> so...

now come and dont tell me that hispanos arent FRIGGIN TURBOLASERS!

and my mausers suck  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Toad]

Ram, the Hispanos are not "friggin turbolasers", at least in the Air-to-Air mode. Get over it, live with it.


Obviously, there are two sides to everything. Watch the films for yourself and make up your own mind. Both of us filmed, so you can watch from each end.

I will say that the LW 20 mm's do not appear to be able to kill a tank. The F4U guns will. Now, I have no idea if there is a historical reason for this (different ammo or whatever) but I think that you guys have a valid question here for HTC. There is indeed a large disparity between the Hispanos and the Mausers against the tank.

Now, as to ANY air-to-air use, I saw VERY LITTLE difference between the two guns.

I think the Hispanos have maybe a 60-70 yard advantage in max range. I tried and tried to get hits on Man's F4 at 1k and the rounds fell short. (I DID hit Beemer at 1k in version 1.02. That film should be on Rude's site as well. Will post address when I confirm the flicks are up.) However, at around 940-930, I could again get hits with the FW. The F4 appears to be able to land a hit around 970. So there is a MINOR difference in max effective range.

With respect to lethality, there is again almost no noticeable difference. In my film, I hit Man's F4 with 10 <not 15> 20mm flashes, resulting in a wounded pilot and hit right elevator. Then Man got tired of my trying to hit him at 1k and deliberately  augered. I didn't get a chance to finish him at 940 or so. <Man, that's why we needed RW.>
So, this film doesn't show if a shot or two more from the FW would have destroyed the plane. Retest, anyone?

Man shot at my F4 from his F4 and after 12 hits (ping sounds..I haven't seen his flick) he had nailed the right flap. That would indicate that I actually did better in the FW. I had wounded him and nailed his right elevator with 10 rounds. Anyway, he then put about a 4-6 round burst into me that tore off my tail from about 940.

Testing against a B-17 was similar. If you put about 8 rounds into a wing using either plane, it comes off. With either plane "wing kill" doesn't vary by 2 hits. One thing is certain. Hits in 1.03 at or beyond 900 with either plane are purely random. You'll get some, but they are not aimed, they are luck-through-dispersion.

Anyway, watch the films and decide for yourself. Rude hasn't put them up yet, but I'll ring his bell again.      

However, I think you will see what YOU want to see in this.

Objectively, in the A2A mode, the Hispano and Mauser leathality are very close. The Hispano has a historically better ROF, larger projectile, higher velocity and better trajectory. I suggest that is where the slight edge comes from.

So, from my view....in Air to Air there is essentially no difference. In the Anti-tank mode, you guys have a legitimate question for Pyro on why the Hispano is so much better. Maybe he has a reason, maybe he needs to tweak.

Mandoble, it was fun testing...<S>

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Ok reality check here:

First of all, YES hispano can kill a tank- the same ammo in both a tiffie and a spit could destroy armored locomotives and tanks. Spits were not usually used for this because they were both more vulnerable when low, and the pilots were annoyed by having to do ground attacks.

Second, the reason it could was because of 2 things. First of all..  198 grams! it's a whoopee huge payload for an airborne cannon!!!! And secondly it has an immense ballistic energy to pound that explosive through and into the armor.

So both historically and reality wise it's a great tank killer.

Someone asked in another thread why they bothered with Piat's or ground anti tank guns if Hisp. was that good. There were reasons for that too, first of all on the ground you don't have the luxury of attacking the rear or top plate of a tank- you need armor penetration through all areas of the tank. Secondly the hispano cannon is a bulky as christ thing to haul around by hand... and it might take 16 or 17 shells to pound through an armor plate vs a 2 lb gun needing 1 or 2 shots. Thirdly the army didn't get a crack at it. Hispano was designed for airplanes, only the airforce really was shown it and given a chance to evaluate it. And even they were dienchanted with it's jamming and pre detonation characteristics. In fact the earlier versions usually used slugs instead of explosives. It was pretty much just as effective- the exploding shells just made it even more powerfull.

Lastly the mauser. I am sooo sorry guy's. I mean really the person to whine to is NOT HTC. I mean the person you should really be screaming at is the people who back in 1938 created a low velocity 20mm shell that had enough exposive to destroy a plane.
The reality is that the 20mm and 30mm are NOT TANK KILLERS. For gods sake RAM, Fishu and Hristo live with it. They have neither the velocity to hammer through plate or the wieght to warp or pierce armor. I am unsure of where the hell you got the idea they should but it's a damned outright LIE.
YES the 190 was predominantly a JABO plane in 1944, especially on the eastern front. It used rockets and bombs to destroy tanks and it's 20mm and MG to shoot planes and strafe non-armored objects. It just never had a role using it's cannon to kill tanks like Hispano did. Be glad you can de-track and damage tanks at ALL.

As far as I know, the ONLY plane that had any success destroying planes with it's cannon was the Ju-88 with a cannon specifically designed for it.

So for chrissakes you guys..  quit playing that harp about hispano vs mausers. it's pretty old, the two perform extremely similar in a2a now since 1.03 made the hispano's less laser of god-like. And in a2g they both perform EXACTLY as they should.

[MANDOBLE]

Toad, I'm having problems sending the films to Rude, it seems his email is very limited in size and the zipped file is 1.5MB.

Now my personal conclusions:
1 - Actually no german aircraft can be used to stop tank assaults.

2 - Both, 190 and F4U can score long distant hits. But the 190 will spend its entire ammo load for one or two hits while the F4U will spend only a small ammount of bullets. At this point, it is true that the aiming skill could be a factor. I'm anything but a good gunner, and it seems Toad shares the same problem.

3 - About the number of hits scored per plane in the long distance test, I dont know how many bullets are represented per "flash", and I dont know how many "flashes" can be drawn at the same point appearing like a single one. Due that, I assumed that each plane scored less than 15 hits (no flashes).

4 - About lethality for normal A/A combat, IMO, hispanos are far away from Mg151/20. As the videos show, in the case of Mg151/20 vs buff, two sets of tracers (hitting engine and wing) and no damage at all in the buff, a third set and wingtip off. In the case of hispanos, one set of tracers and one engine off, a second one and wingtip off. So, in the case of Hispanos, one tracer set is equivalent to one part lost (engine, wingtip, etc). In the case of Mg151/20, three tracer sets is equivalent to one part lost. The lethality ratio for this 300 yards test is 3/1 in favour of Hispanos. Obviously, once you destroy the wingtip of a B17, the buff is off, and we, deliverately were aiming to the wingtips. But if the case we had to aim to the engines, 190 would need 12 tracer sets while F4U could stop the buff with only 4.

A side note about the tests. In all the cases, the target was colaborating, so, no need of any snapshot capability. I asked Toad to do some snapshot tests in a mock combat, but Toad dissapeared from TA, so, no test were conducted. In my experience in MA, F4U can hit and kill easily with snapshots at 500 yards, while I'm unable to make any succesfully snapshot with 190 at more than 300 yards (250-200).

RAM, Hispanos ARE "friggin turbolasers", you are right. You need to spend twice your ammo load in 190A8 to score enough hits to down a F4U at more than 900 yards. In the other hand, F4U only needs less than half its normal ammo load to accomplish that. But, in fact, this is not related to lethality of the bullets, only to the trayectory and velocity of the shots.

With these conclusions I dont mean the Hispanos or M151/20 are bad modeled.

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by Toad:
Ram, the Hispanos are not "friggin turbolasers", at least in the Air-to-Air mode. Get over it, live with it.

oh I know to live with it. But I cant live with people around me telling that Hispanos aren't THAT powerful (way more than they should be).

Why do I say this? 198grams of bullet? so what?...a 198gr HE round CANT KILL A TANK...nor can a burst of HE rounds. So Hispanos have AP projectile isnt it?...ok then an AP projectile DOESNT AS MUCH DAMAGE AS A MAUSER 20MM ROUND! wich BTW was used TO KILL BUFFS!.

I dont mind a toejam about killing tanks (because from the very start I got used to dont be able to kill them). I mind that if hispanos kill tanks so well then they shouldnt kill planes THAT well..and the inverse.

Or are you telling me that an AP projectile burst from 900 yards can rip a B17's wing before a HE mauser burst?

ROFLOL!

Its RIDICULOUS. Or we have AP or we have HE. but there is a HEAP round for Hispanos?.
 In WWII there wasnt. but ok lets say that there there is a HEAP round for Hispanos.
HEAP has less power against tanks than an AP. Has less power against A/C than HE...so that round SHOULDT be so powerful.

And dont forget that HE round for hispanos came only in the last days of the war...so PERK THEM!   (J/K)

Friggin turbolasers, gentlemen. And if you sell me the idea that a Hispano has the power to kill a couple of tanks in 2 passes and then go and fry a B17 from 900yds more effectively than a Fw190,then they are way overmodelled, IMO.

And they are.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:

Someone asked in another thread why they bothered with Piat's or ground anti tank guns if Hisp. was that good. There were reasons for that too, first of all on the ground you don't have the luxury of attacking the rear or top plate of a tank- you need armor penetration through all areas of the tank.

...but the thing here is that Hispano in the game can easily cut through panzers front, so I tell you got the luxury  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:

The reality is that the 20mm and 30mm are NOT TANK KILLERS.

Excuse me, but why does Hispano then remind more of AT gun?
for god sake, its 20mm!

[Fishu]

Wouldn't really wonder if Sorrow or someone would suddenly come to say for us that .50 caliber gun is actually better against tanks than 20mm or 37mm...

"it has the velocity and rate of fire"

   

[Toad]

Man, I had a computer lockup at the end there. The whole thing froze; it's been doing that. When I got rebooted, you were gone. Snapshot tests really wouldn't prove much because it would be so hard to get exactly the same snapshot for each type of gun. It would be hard to compare "apples to apples".

As far as long distance hits, I disagree. At 920 or less, either the FW or the F4U will get a flash or two for each burst. This is due to dispersion not aim, mainly. The real difference is that the F4U carries a much larger ammo load than the FW, so you have more bursts to use.It's not any harder to hit at 900 in either one; both are random due to dispersion and you will get one or two flashes in either plane per burst.

It is my understanding from what HT has written that "one flash is one hit". Now that someone finally aggravated HT enough with the old "one ping kill" whine, we also have "one hit sound per hit"; the sounds don't stop when you die, either. So, I counted hit flashes in extreme slow motion on my film when I was shooting at you. When you were shooting at me during the test, I put on my headset and counted hit sounds.

As far as the buff wing, see above. It's not "sets of tracers" it's hit flashes. In both cases, with either plane attacking, 8-10 flashes took off a B-17 wing. Like it or not, the leathality is nearly identical.

On your last comment on ammo load, once again remember that the F4U carries WAY more ammo than a FW. I think it might take nearly a whole FW ammo load to kill at 900. It would take AT LEAST 1/2 the ammo load of a F4U...but then the ammo load is about twice as big!  You have to compare this on rounds fired, not % of ammo load fired. If you do that, it will be nearly identical.

You guys can use any excuse you like and believe it as long as you want to; go ahead and delude yourselves, but it ain't the guns.  

Any kind of objective testing shows that in A2A modes, the Hispanos are not any more a "friggin turbolaser" than the M151/20.

I'll be happy to repeat any of these tests you like. Next time however, we must be patient and take short shots. After every shot we must type into the buffer how many flashes the shooter saw, how many hits the target heard and if any damage resulted. When you play back tapes as a target, there are no hit sounds or flashes. So, we need the results in the text buffer.

If you can figure out a way to get the same snapshot for both planes each time, we can try that as well. RW really helps because you don't have to type while lining up the shot.  

[Nashwan]

Against tanks the Mg151 should be almost useless. They fire a lighter round at a lower velocity, and the Hispano delivers 1.74 times as much kinetic energy per shell. It should also be harder to get a hit on manoeuvering targets due to the lower MV.
MG 151/20 (115 g) 740 rpm  710 m/s  
MG 151/20 ( 92 g) 740 rpm  800 m/s  
MK 108 (312 g) 600 rpm  505 m/s  

Hispano Mk.II(130 g) 600 rpm  880 m/s  

How anybody can expect to get kills on tanks with a 108 is beyond me.

Against aircraft, I don't think the explosive content of the ammo is fully taken into account. The Mg151 should be putting out slightly greater chemical energy than the Hispano thanks to it's higher percentage of explosive filling. It seems to me HTC don't model explosive energy well enough, bombs and rockets don't do the damage they should either.

[Toad]

Man,

As for the films, Rude got mine no sweat. He's on a DSL line and there is no size limit. However, Rude suckered Thunder into taking care of our website, so you might as well try sending it to Thunder; that's where mine went. Just tell him to put it up on the 13th TAS website in the Vault.

Thunder = sjthornton@home.com

Rather than wasting more time testing, I'll propose a challenge:

Why don't you "Hispano Howlers" try to find something that the Hispano will do that the Mauser won't do that can be checked and repeated in a standardized way.

The only conditions:

Air-to-Air Mode (I agree it won't kill tanks...take that up with Pyro, not me.)

Max range a nice round 900 yards.

Hit flashes are the only thing that counts as a hit and they can be seen on the shooter's film.

Mauser gets 10% more hit flashes to duplicate the feat. Dinger's tests and Vermillion's leathality data show that the Mauser is and should be about 10% less leathal than the Hispano. (Certainly not a "friggin turbolaser" difference.)

So, if you can find something in the Air-to-air mode, inside of 900 yards that the Hispano can kill that the Mauser CAN'T kill using Hispano flashes + 10%....

Then I'll be happy to discuss this some more. Otherwise, you guys just go ahead and cry in your beer.  

 

[Toad]

And now that we know a FW has a tough time killing a tank, it's time to look at K/D again in light of this information.

Tour 5       Kills    Deaths   K/D

F4U-1C       10537    6142     1.71

FW-190A8      4702    3751     1.25

FW-190A5      9049    6342     1.42      

But what if we look at the Air to Air Mode? So, let's subtract the Panzer IV, M3, M16. After all, we agree the FW's CAN'T a tank..let's just see how these planes stack up Air to Air.

F4U against:

Panzer IV    1135    660
M16          1048    426
M3             58     21


Totals       2241    1107

Fw901A8
Panzer IV    308      329
M16          510      219
M3            12        8

Totals       830       556

FW190-A5

Panzer IV    60         303
M16         396         283
M3           73          37

Totals      529         623

So, subtracting these kills and deaths, the new A2A K/D's are:

F4U         8121     5027    1.61

FW190-A8    3872     3195    1.21

FW190-A5    8520     5719    1.48

Oh, my! looks like the F4U and the FW190-A5 are pretty dang close now, doesn't it?

BAN THEM BOTH!!!!

   

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

F4U         8121     5027    1.61
FW190-A8    3872     3195    1.21
FW190-A5    8520     5719    1.48
   

Lets talk a bit about "Turbolaser" concept:
Turbo: High ROF
Laser: High speed, very tense trajectory.

I can talk only about my personal experience. My kills in 190A5 (snapshots included) are done from 150 to 300 yards, the most common range is between 200 and 250 yards. Most of the F4U1C kills I've seen have been done between 500 and 900 yards.

About the K/D results, all we know very well that most of the 190A5 pilots are just newbies, while most of the F4U1C pilots are the finest expertens in the game. So, having a bunch of newbies with a so close K/D score to the HogC means only one thing: 190A5 and its guns should be considered too uber and a perk plane