Its tested, Hispano is too powerful tank killer

[Fishu]

Made a series of testings today with F4u-1c, Typhoon and Fw190A8 against panzer.

Results were quite stunning for the hispanos(!!).

F4u-1c and Typhoon took down panzer within one or two passes, from every angle - worst approach corner was behind the tank, where only turret and driver wounds came couple times, but still usually blew up on first pass. (There were not a single time that panzer didnt get disabled or destroyed by first pass)

Fw190A-8, with 4xMG151/20, no firing with 13mm, resulted in several passes on the tank, on every corner, even from right top of the tank.
I don't recall killing any panzers with Fw190, most were that I managed to disable turret maybe.

Also, lets mention that most of the shots were fired within close range in Fw190.

In typhoon / f4u-c, only low amount of 20mm were needed; 50-150 (about 150 rounds were used in case when tank got disabled from behind, but did not explode) rounds per tank (this does also count misses)

Notable here is that panzer did not survive from low or high angle attacks from ahead made by F4u or Typhoon. (with Fw190, driver got once wounded from attack in front)


So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, if not against planes (doubtful that its only against tank) it is at least against tanks.
There is serious need to fix this issue.

I did also record films.
One thing I find intresting here though, is that I see more tracers come out from F4u and Typhoon than from Fw190 relative to use of ammo, in the film.
In flight there were more hits with 190 than in the film (and less tracers visible in film than I saw)

I once drove 109 with 30mm right into the tank and laid fire, nothing, lol  

[airspro]

Me and airreapr tried that in training room the other day . U want to kill tanks ? Use Typhoon .

cheers spro

[Spatula]

Not sure on the hispano front but the 190A8 armed with 2*20mm and 2*30mm and 2*13mm does practically nothing to a tank. I straffed some tanks a while back (might have been patch 1 or 2) with the A8 in that config about 5-6 good passes but not a scratch. I re-uped and  gave them another good hosing but still nothing  

Whassup with that?

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:

So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, if not against planes (doubtful that its only against tank) it is at least against tanks.
There is serious need to fix this issue.

This past weekend I was into a B17 being followed by a Tiffy (long six). At d1 I saw clearly two tracers (I suppose they were really four tracers, but only saw two, and only ear two hits), and my right wing blew off. Dont know how many bullets are fired per tracer, lets suppose four bolts per tracer, lets suppose all of them hit my plane. The conclusion is alarming: between 8 and 16 20mm hispano rounds are enough to cut B17 wings at almost 1km.

Another example. Zoom climb with a 190A5, F4UC climbing at my six (d800). My A5 was gaining separation quickly. At d900 the HogC began to spray'n pray. One hit, left aileron out. Two seconds later, two more hits, left wing out and on fire.

Some H/H tests (no combat) with 190A8 vs F4U1C:
1 - A8 (275 mph and acelerating) and F4 (constant speed of 250 mph) level flight, A8 at long six of F4 (d2). The A8 scored the first hits at d500. F4U1C destroyed at d400.

1 - F4U1C (275 mph and acelerating) and 190A8 (constant speed of 250 mph) level flight, F4U1C at long six of A8 (d2). The F4U1C scored the first hits at d900. 190A8 destroyed at d900.

So, currently Hispano is the super weapon, also against planes.
I wonder why to develop a weaker weapon like the M61A1...

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Spatula:
Not sure on the hispano front but the 190A8 armed with 2*20mm and 2*30mm and 2*13mm does practically nothing to a tank. I straffed some tanks a while back (might have been patch 1 or 2) with the A8 in that config about 5-6 good passes but not a scratch. I re-uped and  gave them another good hosing but still nothing    

Whassup with that?

Hoho.. Fw190 didnt get panzer at all, only disabled it once during testings (still able to run though).
But Typhoon and F4u-1c were scoring MULTIPLE tanks with half or less of their ammo.. and most reliable way to attack a tank in two mentioned planes was to attack on panzers front, side or top. (back was most toughest, and had a chance of surviving one pass   )

I wonder how Hispano could be THIS much more powerful, it wasnt any super cannon even though if it was good.

I can imagine allie infantry being armed with Hispano converted anti-tank guns and throwing their lousy bazookas and piats into the ditch  

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Spatula, minus all the rhetoric, the reason for that configuration being ineffective against tanks is that it should be.

Obviously the 13mm MG's aren't going to do much more than scratch up his pretty camo paint job.

The Mk108 30mm's cannons are using a low velocity high explosive round, designed for use on aircraft. They deliver alot of explosive power, but have almost no armor penetration capability. So while they will make pretty flashes, and nice booms, thats about all they're good for.

So that leaves you with the x2 MG151/20's

Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble".  The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.

Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.

So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

Hispanos arent turbolaser no more...now they are only Lasers.

Mausers arent 20 mm cannons no more...now they are crap

Seems that HTC tuned BOTH down. Why is out of my knowledge, but the results are alarming. I cant kill a con on one pass anymore with a 190, and I still get F***ed by hispanodweebs from 900yds away...

And this is starting to bore me...

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:

Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble".  The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.

Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.

So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).

I haven't complained of american .50 or 20mm for long time, actually, hispano is British  

And I also did record films of it, like I said, my proves..
Yes, I said already that Hispano is good, but its NOT super weapon still against tanks.
(why did brits make piat or 2 pounder gun then?)

[Toad]

Before 1.03, Beemer and I went to the TA and shot at each other in FW's and F4U-1C's. In air to air modes, there was essentially no difference in leathality at all. Whatever the F4U did, the FW could do at the same range with at the very most one or two more hit flashes. I still have those films, Beemer probably does too.

In short, BOTH the F4U and the FW could kill each other at 1k with about 5-8 hit flashes.

These tests were conducted without doing any maneuvering; it was just a leathality test. So the "Luftbabble" at that time  (as Vermillion puts it) was just that. The "turbo" guns were on BOTH planes. (It was quite a bit easier to see the target out of the F4U though. Forward visibility for target tracking is much better than that in the FW, IMHO.)

I'll get with Beemer, or any other OPEN MINDED person that wants to run these tests again and we'll toss in some tank runs as well.

I suspect, in the A2A mode, that the guns are still closely matched, despite the sniffles of inferiority.

I have no idea about the anti-armor capability because I only attack tanks if I'm bored and I only drive them if the squad is doing a rare tank run. Some of that might be ammo differences as Verm also points out.

I think this whole controversy stems from the fact that the LW's just can't stand having a cannon-armed B&Z bird in the game if it wasn't designed by Kurt Tank.  

[Fishu]

I'll get with Beemer, or any other OPEN MINDED person that wants to run these tests again and we'll toss in some tank runs as well.

I suspect, in the A2A mode, that the guns are still closely matched, despite the sniffles of inferiority.

I have no idea about the anti-armor capability because I only attack tanks if I'm bored and I only drive them if the squad is doing a rare tank run. Some of that might be ammo differences as Verm also points out.

I think this whole controversy stems from the fact that the LW's just can't stand having a cannon-armed B&Z bird in the game if it wasn't designed by Kurt Tank.    [/B][/QUOTE]

I tested it H2H and online, both had same results. (online = MA)
result was that there were Fw190 tickles the tank, F4u or Typhoon just shoots it like it would be a plane.

[Cobra]

Fishu,
What handle are you currently using to conduct these tests in the MA?

A quick check of the stats for Fishu in tour 5 and 6 shows no sorties or ordinance expended at all.

Perhaps you are using a new handle on a trial account or something.

[MANDOBLE]

Toad, Im a 190/109 dedicated pilot for several tours and never have been able to hit anything (except buffs) with Mg151/20 at longer distances than 600 yards. Actually I can score hits at distances of 500 or less with 190A5 (normaly 250-200 yards).

If you are so kind, I would be very interested into those films showing 190A8 killing F4U1Cs at 1000 yards.

Also, I'm interested into repeating those test with you as soon as possible, recording and posting the films.

[Toad]

Mandoble,

I can E-Mail it to you or soon you should be able to get it off the 13th TAS website. It's FW1k.ahf

I have one film of my FW killing Beem's F4U at 1k. Beemer might have some too; I'll see if he kept them (I droned for him more than he droned for me.) This was version 1.02, when the "Hispano Howling" was at its loudest.

In the first part of this film, I shoot some machine gun at him to see if I can even hit him at long range. <EDIT: I think we both set convergence to 400 for these tests. Might have been 450.> I did but he reported no damage over RW. Then we get stabilized at 1K and I shoot about 5-6 bursts of cannon at him, getting about one flash per burst. The last flash takes a wing.  Use zoom, it's all ez to see.

After each burst we compared notes on how many flashes I saw, how many pings he heard and what damage he took. We did this over RW. Next time, I'd use the text/radio to show this info to other viewers of the film.

I'd be very happy to do this with you. RW makes it easy, so I hope you have that. Still, we need to shoot a short burst, send results in text, shoot again, until target is destroyed.

I like to do this type of testing. If there's something wrong, we should point it out. If not, then we should leave HTC in peace. Zigrat was going to do it with me but changed his mind apparently.

I'll look for ya. When do you usually fly?

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 07-11-2000).]

[Spatula]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Spatula, minus all the rhetoric, the reason for that configuration being ineffective against tanks is that it should be.

Obviously the 13mm MG's aren't going to do much more than scratch up his pretty camo paint job.

The Mk108 30mm's cannons are using a low velocity high explosive round, designed for use on aircraft. They deliver alot of explosive power, but have almost no armor penetration capability. So while they will make pretty flashes, and nice booms, thats about all they're good for.

So that leaves you with the x2 MG151/20's

Now as too Fishu and Mandobles constant rants about the American .50's and 20mm's, part may be right (hispano vs tanks, but I haven't seen definitive proof either way), and part is "Luftbabble".  The 20mm Hispano is and should be appreciably more effective than the Mauser MG151/20 20mm. Simple knowledge of how guns, balistics, ammunition, and how they work makes this obvious.

Now is the Hispano 20mm too effective against tanks? It may be. And my personal feeling on this part of the issue, sides with Fishu and Mandoble. But without any hard real life data compared to testing in AH, I find it hard to say that the game is incorrect without some kind of hard proof, feelings aside.

So basically, a Spitfire would be more effective against a tank, than a 30mm armed Fw190A8 (and again it should be).

Thanks Verm, that explains things nicely. I didnt know the 30mm was more a HE round than an AP.

Cheers.

Spat.

[MANDOBLE]

Toad and me conduted some A/A, A/G test with hispanos and Mg151/20 yesterday. All the tests were filmed and will be posted in Rude's page.

The tests were as follows:
1 - 190A8 4x20 attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
2 - F4U1C attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
3 - F4U1C (convergence fixed) attacking F4U1C from D1 to D900.
4 - F4U1C attacking Panzer.
5 - 190A8 attacking Panzer.
6 - 190A5 attacking Panzer.
7 - 190A8 attacking B17 (250-300 yards, shot by shot)
8 - F4U1C attacking B17 (250-300 yards, shot by shot)

The results:
1 - 190A8 was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards. These hits didn't down the F4U, but one aileron and one flap broken.
2 and 3 - F4U was able to score some hits (less than 15 scattered flashes) on F4U from 950 yards.
These hits downed the F4U: Fuel tank and both ailerons.
4 - Three passes needed to kill the tank. Few hits per pass.
5 - A lot of passes, a lot of hits per pass, no way to kill the panzer. After spending much more than the normal loadout of the 190A8, both tracks were disable on the tank.
6 - Same as 5, but no damage at all.
7 - Three hits on 'B' key, three bursts needed to cut the wing of the B17 (about 9 flashes).
8 - Two hits on 'B' key. First burst killing one B17 engine. Second burst cutting B17 wing (about 6 flashes).