Perk planes...

[Karnak]

Point being that if there were (for example purposes only) 8000 Spit9's made and 500 Spit16's made... should we really be seeing an 8 to 1 ratio of Spit16's to Spit9's??? 

Of the 5000 Spitfire Mk IXs built only about 300 of them were powered by Merlin 61s like our Spitfire Mk IX.  3000 of them were powered by Merlin 66s like, you guessed it, our Mk XVI.  The Spitfire Mk XVI is more representative of the common Spitfire Mk IX than our Spitfire MK IX is.

Also, there were more than 1000 Mk XVI's built.

[1pLUs44]

Unfortunately, if you perk some of the LW planes in the DA, all you will do is force the dweebs to fly another plane.  Their 'tard like behavior isn't just limited to the LW perk planes but any plane they fly.

ack-ack

IMO, after the Tempest, any other plane isn't that hard to catch. If they take up a 190 Dora, I can just run him down on the deck in my 109K4.

[Race]

That was kinda my point 1+44...the others are fast but far easier to catch.

Race

[Ack-Ack]

IMO, after the Tempest, any other plane isn't that hard to catch. If they take up a 190 Dora, I can just run him down on the deck in my 109K4.

You still missed the point.  The point wasn't that you would be able to chase them down and HO them but rather that the would still continue their dweeb like behavior regardless if the Tempest was perked.  In your scenario, they were still doing the same crap they were doing in a Tempest, this just time in a non-perked Late War ride.


ack-ack

[BnZs]

Why are you so worried about that Temp anyway? All that speed? It doesn't have a rear gunner, it can't kill you while it is running away.

Don't like getting picked? Well, who does?  Anything with 4 cannons can pick you out of a 1v1 in a microsecond, sure enough. So you are in the midst of a 1v1 when you look back and you see a Tempest at the speed of light 600 yards back and closing. Think you can dodge him? Good chance of it.

Now, instead of a Tempest coming to pick you, make it a Hurricane IIc back there with some closure, coming to pick you. Dollars to donuts you are DEAD really no matter what you do, at least 10 times for every 1 time that warp-speed Tempy bags you.

So why not holler for the HurriIIc, N1K, or Spit etc, to be perked? I'd wager at any given moment in a furball you are 20-30 times more likely to be picked by one those floating around than by those wicked 500mph Temps, Ponies, 190s, or Hogs everyone likes to whine about.

[Race]

You still missed the point.  The point wasn't that you would be able to chase them down and HO them but rather that the would still continue their dweeb like behavior regardless if the Tempest was perked.  In your scenario, they were still doing the same crap they were doing in a Tempest, this just time in a non-perked Late War ride.


ack-ack

   I think the point is its alot easier to cope with thier dweeb like behavior. Instead of either HOing them or dodging the endless 6k extend/remerges til your out of gas.

Why are you so worried about that Temp anyway? All that speed? It doesn't have a rear gunner, it can't kill you while it is running away.

Don't like getting picked? Well, who does?  Anything with 4 cannons can pick you out of a 1v1 in a microsecond, sure enough. So you are in the midst of a 1v1 when you look back and you see a Tempest at the speed of light 600 yards back and closing. Think you can dodge him? Good chance of it.

Now, instead of a Tempest coming to pick you, make it a Hurricane IIc back there with some closure, coming to pick you. Dollars to donuts you are DEAD really no matter what you do, at least 10 times for every 1 time that warp-speed Tempy bags you.

So why not holler for the HurriIIc, N1K, or Spit etc, to be perked? I'd wager at any given moment in a furball you are 20-30 times more likely to be picked by one those floating around than by those wicked 500mph Temps, Ponies, 190s, or Hogs everyone likes to whine about.

Its not the picked that bothers me which happens all the time. The 3 turns....run....turn back for the HO...3 turns...yatta yatta til I run out gas. I am not in the habit of flying planes that can win a HO. So my only option is to try and go somewhere else. Or my personal favorite.....nag you just long enough for his buddies to show up. If I am getting pick attemps at least I have a shot for an overshoot. The running just burn gas and patients.

Race

[BnZs]

So you are not being bothered by being shot out of 1v1, or the general ganging nature of that arena-you are highly bothered by the notion of a fast airplane getting away if it should FAIL to pick you. Never mind that there are X other kinds of airplanes which probably would have succeeded in picking you, with which you have no problem. Bizarre.

And going somewhere else ought to be pretty easy, I mean, if they are running away at ~400mph to beyond icon range, you can be going at least ~250mph the other way. 650mph is quite a bit of separation speed.

And if you have 6 .50s or 2x20s, you have enough firepower to knock their Tempest down, although you may not survive yourself, if they are annoying with HO passes.

I could just as easily argue that if you want to name the ultimate dweeb planes that "need" perking out of the furball lake, the HurriIIC or N1K. No other plane spells "death" for you quite so bad if you are slowed down for a good fight and find one swooping in behind you. A chimpanzee could kill in one of those things, and they are about the only planes that can actually convert a situation where you are 600 yards off their dead six into a HO you dare not take in a split second. Not that I'd really advocate perking them out of the gangtard arena, but you get my point.

[Race]

So you are not being bothered by being shot out of 1v1, or the general ganging nature of that arena-you are highly bothered by the notion of a fast airplane getting away if it should FAIL to pick you. Never mind that there are X other kinds of airplanes which probably would have succeeded in picking you, with which you have no problem. Bizarre.

And going somewhere else ought to be pretty easy, I mean, if they are running away at ~400mph to beyond icon range, you can be going at least ~250mph the other way. 650mph is quite a bit of separation speed.

And if you have 6 .50s or 2x20s, you have enough firepower to knock their Tempest down, although you may not survive yourself, if they are annoying with HO passes.

I could just as easily argue that if you want to name the ultimate dweeb planes that "need" perking out of the furball lake, the HurriIIC or N1K. No other plane spells "death" for you quite so bad if you are slowed down for a good fight and find one swooping in behind you. A chimpanzee could kill in one of those things, and they are about the only planes that can actually convert a situation where you are 600 yards off their dead six into a HO you dare not take in a split second. Not that I'd really advocate perking them out of the gangtard arena, but you get my point.

Its not about picking.....evidently people dont get my point so I will spell it out.

1 pass extend for 6k or til I turn away and then come back then rinse repeat......never engaging and never (usually) being able to kill. I dont fly 6 50s and I dont want to give them the satifaction of even getting a kill...regardless of why they die. 4 50s vs 4 20mms is a lopsided affair that I have long since given up on. Come in there 1 time and I will show you what I am talking about. I guarantee you wont want to fly with a tempest around flying like this.

Race

[BnZs]

Its not about picking.....evidently people dont get my point so I will spell it out.

1 pass extend for 6k or til I turn away and then come back then rinse repeat......never engaging and never (usually) being able to kill. I dont fly 6 50s and I dont want to give them the satifaction of even getting a kill...regardless of why they die. 4 50s vs 4 20mms is a lopsided affair that I have long since given up on. Come in there 1 time and I will show you what I am talking about. I guarantee you wont want to fly with a tempest around flying like this.

Race

I've been there. Crowded fights are annoyingly disorganized. It is more about quick-twitch reflexes, gunnery, and luck than ACM IMO. That said, it can  be fun. That said, when I get bounced, the 500mph Temps usually miss me. And sometimes auger. So I consider them the least of my problems.

[Race]

      In general I was thinking 1v1 fights with DA population less than 20 which is small enough to have a few 1v1s. In a 50 plane furbal plane choice isnt so bad because most times some one will be higher and the tempests are drawn lower to the easy pickings.  Once they get low alot of planes can dive with altitude and ruin there day. Most of the time there isnt alot of people. You guys are right...the dweeb flying will continue. I think it will be easier to make these guys fight if they werent in the fast prop plane in the game at normal fighting alts. There is a reason its perked.....

Race

[BnZs]

I think it will be easier to make these guys fight if they werent in the fast prop plane in the game at normal fighting alts. There is a reason its perked.....

Race

Take up a farking 110G and BRING the HO-pain to them brother. Of course, you'll get bounced by 9 legions of N1Ks, Spits, and Hurris because you are slow, heavy, and a big target but we've already established you don't mind THOSE planes gang-picking you.

Honestly, I think the La7 needs perking in the MA more than the Temp. Both are faster than any other prop job at typical altitudes. The Temp has by far the worst handling (Tempest has MONUMENTAL torque, while the La7 mysteriously has negligible torque, despite being a huge engine in a relatively small airframe.) Thus the Tempest is easier to dogfight or dodge. I don't think ANYTHING needs perking in what is supposed to be the ultimate "Its all for laffs and don't count anyway" area.

[PFactorDave]

Honestly, the biggest reason most people dislike the Boom and Zoom planes is the way that they are used.  Imagine if you will, taking off from your base...  Only to notice a Typhie high on the perch waiting for you to get just a little further away from the ack guns.   The moment you are out of those ack guns' embrace, here he comes.  Forcing him to miss isn't too terribly difficult, if you are paying attention.  But he will continue to dive on you and then climb back up, waiting 'til he thinks you aren't paying attention because he is putting himself at little or no risk.  So...  You must either A) Continue to dodge him ad infinitum or until he finds a less wary target or B) Attempt to slowly climb up to him, always in a nose up and slow posture.  Hoping that once you get up to his level that he doesn't simply HO you with those 4 20mm cannons.

It becomes the game:  ACES I CAN FLY HIGHER THAN YOU.

Personally, I get the whole BnZ is historically accurate thing.  Probably waaay more historically accurate then the TnB thing.

Problem is, the BnZ thing is pretty darn boring for 50% of the players involved.  Where as the TnB thing can be pretty darn exciting for 100% of the players involved.  I tried the BnZ thing for a little less than one tour, I found it boring. 

If more BnZ type pilots were truly aggressive, to keep bringing the fight, rather then dive/climb/wait/wait/dive/etc/etc then maybe the hostility wouldn't be so great.

So there it is...  Now days, if I find myself in an area populated by enemies high overhead, flying 190s/P51s/Typhies/etc, I usually just land and look for another sector with a fight more to my interests.  Does that make the high flyers bad people, nah not really, but it's my $15 per month so I intend to find something that is FUN for ME, not the guy 6-10k over head.

[BnZs]

Dave:

I don't have to imagine it. I've been under such attacks, many, many times

 Hmmm...you've noticed something I've noticed. Namely, that 2 or more pilots in b'n'z planes can really frustrate people, even much larger numbers, by keeping them from being able to climb and reach a position where they stand a chance of mounting a counterattack. If you are slowly climbing up, you are slow and alone against them. They'll tend to either shoot you or force you lower in your evasives. Most frustrating. It is also something I think is rather nifty when done well. I have expressed admiration for enemy pilots doing so before, even thought it kind of sucks to be on the bottom.

 Even if they don't get a single kill, they tie up large numbers of enemy and keep them from climbing. So basically, it sounds like you are complaining about BnZ tactics because they are frustrating and difficult to counter...

Isn't frustrating the opposition and giving him difficulties kind of the point?

There has been more than one occasion where there was like, a lone pony up high, and someone would say on range, "Darn pony, he should come down and fight!" and I'd say something to the effect of "Yeah. Sure. He should dive down and go to turnfighting my Hurri and the 20 or so Lalas and Spits we got flying around this base. That would be smart." So as you can see, I'm no hypocrite on the matter.

What you might consider is grabbing a wingy and climbing from another base to bounce them. I don't really mind high flyers all that much, I think it is a shame, a crying shame, that the combat in AH is all in the weeds all the time. Always the low alt, always the same group of planes that are "uber" and have the most advantages there, half the time one team or the other is in as much danger from ack as from other fighters, ugh. Up high different planes come into their strength, different feel to the flying, and fights can last longer when there is a lot more of the altitude bank to borrow energy from.

[PFactorDave]

Dave:

I don't have to imagine it. I've been under such attacks, many, many times

 Hmmm...you've noticed something I've noticed. Namely, that 2 or more pilots in b'n'z planes can really frustrate people, even much larger numbers, by keeping them from being able to climb and reach a position where they stand a chance of mounting a counterattack. If you are slowly climbing up, you are slow and alone against them. They'll tend to either shoot you or force you lower in your evasives. Most frustrating. It is also something I think is rather nifty when done well. I have expressed admiration for enemy pilots doing so before, even thought it kind of sucks to be on the bottom.

 Even if they don't get a single kill, they tie up large numbers of enemy and keep them from climbing. So basically, it sounds like you are complaining about BnZ tactics because they are frustrating and difficult to counter...

Isn't frustrating the opposition and giving him difficulties kind of the point?

There has been more than one occasion where there was like, a lone pony up high, and someone would say on range, "Darn pony, he should come down and fight!" and I'd say something to the effect of "Yeah. Sure. He should dive down and go to turnfighting my Hurri and the 20 or so Lalas and Spits we got flying around this base. That would be smart." So as you can see, I'm no hypocrite on the matter.

What you might consider is grabbing a wingy and climbing from another base to bounce them. I don't really mind high flyers all that much, I think it is a shame, a crying shame, that the combat in AH is all in the weeds all the time. Always the low alt, always the same group of planes that are "uber" and have the most advantages there, half the time one team or the other is in as much danger from ack as from other fighters, ugh. Up high different planes come into their strength, different feel to the flying, and fights can last longer when there is a lot more of the altitude bank to borrow energy from.

I am not arguing with you about the tactic and its effectiveness in anyway whatsoever.  It works.  If it didnt, there wouldn't be so many late war aircraft that are good at it.  AH has some pilots who are exceptionally good at it too.  I was just pointing out WHY it garners the disdain that it does.  Or at least part of the reason.  The other part being, of course, that it is the favourite tactic of those who seem solely concerned with their scores.  As for your advice that I get a friend and up from a base possibly a sector (or more on many maps) away with the intent of FLYING HIGHER THAN THEY DO....  No thanks, why spend 10-15 minutes climbing and traveling?  It's just as easy for me to up from a base half a dozen sectors away (where there are fewer BnZers present), climb up four or five thousand feet and hope to find a fight that is much more fun.  The Pony/190/Typhie/etc crowd is more than welcome to continue hovering over that base, diving on those players who find that type of play fun.

This is just how I see it.  BnZ away.  It's your $15/month.  If that is what you find fun, great.  I'm sure there will always be somebody willing to be your target.  I see no reason why it should be me, it's my $15/month too.

[BnZs]

Well, "taste is inarguable" I suppose. To me, alot of what people all a "fun fight" I call sort o' mindless...not that it isn't fun, but basically most furballs are chaotic pick-fests where luck plays as much a part as strategy and decision making in whether or not you survive and land pelts, and you probably ain't going to survive it. And where you are even less likely to force a long 1v1 than when flying a little higher.

 Not that it can't be fun to indulge in, but "Doom" was more my game in my hyperactive reflexes stage of life.

BTW, as far as score-mongering goes, conservative BnZing kills every stat but k/d when compared to just wading in and killing like a berserker until you go down.