Dont think plane....think ACM

[Anaxogoras]

So how to you explain the success the fins had with the Brewster Buffalo and Hawk75 or the success that the Poles had with the PLZ (?) biplanes.

Enemy mistakes.  Most of us are too much in the habit of attributing successes to our own skill instead of the shortcomings of the enemy.

[humble]

Going into the fight with the hope that the other guy will screw up just seems cheeky to me.  It's big show of temerity, which is not a prized quality in a fighter pilot.

I also take offense against characterizing my criticism as representing a quake-style of play.  Approaching the game as a simulation, which I do, is not consistent with intentionally getting shot down.

I'm not going in to any fight with the idea that the other guy will "screw up"...my intent is to kill him. I don't fly stupid and I don't "flop" but I fly with aggressive intent in whatever I happen to be in. IMO air combat can be summed up in a single quote "there are only to types of aircraft-fighters and targets" and I am never a target regardless of what i'm flying.

Now when you fly what are you "simming"? Do you always have a superior plane? Do you always have an exploitable advantage or number or altitude. Do you ever simulate the RAAF pilots at Port Moresby gamely clawing for alt flying up into the zekes dropping from 22k in their  P-40's? Or the Finns climbing into the sun to face 190A5's in their Buffalo's? Do you ever purposely put yourself in an inferior plane facing daunting odds because 65+ years ago thousands of airmen spent their last few minutes screaming and bleeding in burning twisted metal because fate, honor and the fortunes of war sent them in harms way?

[humble]

l

Enemy mistakes.  Most of us are too much in the habit of attributing successes to our own skill instead of the shortcomings of the enemy.

That might be the most clueless comment I've ever read...

[Anaxogoras]

Now when you fly what are you "simming"? Do you always have a superior plane? Do you always have an exploitable advantage or number or altitude. Do you ever simulate the RAAF pilots at Port Moresby gamely clawing for alt flying up into the zekes dropping from 22k in their  P-40's? Or the Finns climbing into the sun to face 190A5's in their Buffalo's? Do you ever purposely put yourself in an inferior plane facing daunting odds because 65+ years ago thousands of airmen spent their last few minutes screaming and bleeding in burning twisted metal because fate, honor and the fortunes of war sent them in harms way?

I've ended up in inferior positions often enough not to have to try to seek them out.  The dramatically shifting dynamics of the arena battles ensure that, and then there are FSO's that sometimes put me at a disadvantage.  It's no big deal.

That might be the most clueless comment I've ever read...

Unless you back that up with an argument, it's merely invective.

[humble]

I'm not trying to be insulting or pick a fight with you. Air combat is about controlled aggression and sound thinking. While a superior plane can make a difference in the end success or failure normally falls on the skill of the pilot. An average pilot in a superior plane can "not lose a fight" but is hard pressed to actually kill a better pilot one on one. He can repeatedly strafe the other guy until he succeeds or runs out of ammo if he chooses, but normally if he engages in a true "dog fight" he will lose.

Now the uncertainty of initial positions and the disparity of plane type will effect this "equation" to a degree. As a pilot progresses in understanding he begins to learn to shape a fight and impose his will to some degree. Now in a fight between dissimilar planes a mental chess match ensues. If one plane is double negative then control of a fight can only be gained via a "false positive" where the pilot in the inferior position induces a mistake and then manages to secure and exploit the temporary advantage. Way back when as a trainer my focus was on intermediate level pilots. Normally these were guys with a fair amount of stick time who had some significant success in the MA's but invariably lost the majority of there 1 on 1's against the "good sticks". We had a pretty good system (as they go now) for matching trainers with needs. A couple of guys were great duelers (I've never been){+ we had fester (then citabria) Leviathan (then DMF) and a host of others around for that}. Others had tremendous patience and a knack for laying a good foundation etc...

Anyway invariably the 1st thing i'd do is have a guy grab his favorite ride and grab a few K on me and then try and kill me in a P-40 or such. Almost inevitably the initial results looked something like this. http://www.71sqn.co.uk/Films/P40vN1ki.ahf

When someone talks about "quake" pilots this is it. The guy was consistantly a "top 100" pilot but my left boot heel forgot more ACM then he'd learned at this point. Now this isnt his fault and he might be a great guy. but the system told him he was "good" so he only learned what the system rewarded. Now this was an MA encounter and normally i'd get the guy after a few of these and then tear him down and rebuild him with a better understanding of cause and effect in air combat.

[humble]

Unless you back that up with an argument, it's merely invective.

What argument? Of course superior pilot training is in play. How many Finnish pilots had any combat flying prior to combat? Is the Buffalo superior to the Russian planes they faced? Did most of the Russians have both training and some combat experience. Air combat is all about aggression and forced mistakes. In almost every fight the end result is dictated by pilot error, thats what a good pilot does he forces an error and exploits it.

I get schooled all the time, just looking at wingzero and greebo they could put up a 100+ snaphook the bozo clips...its part of the process.

[Murdr]

Yes, I'll try to elaborate:

All to often I run into (or worked with as a trainer way back) guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy (or gal).

Part of me thinks "how could relying on the plane's ability be construed as a bad thing?"  Getting the most out your aircraft is paramount.  Perhaps you mean that these people lack a basic knowledge of ACM and just pull back on the stick hoping for something good to happen?  If that's what you mean, I'm puzzled why you call that relying on the plane's ability, because if anything that's an under-utilization of the plane's ability.

I got to this part and skipped the rest to reply.  I almost quoted and commented on humble's quotes last night.

I'm not sure what the point that humble inteneded was.  But I read "guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy" part and there is a very good point in there.  What I observe very frequently are players who have been around awhile and have moderate sucess flying the "popular" planes, end up asking for help when they try to transition into one of the more average performing planes.  The problem?  They have been making basic and fundamental mistakes left and right but their normal rides performance masks or makes-up for their mistakes.  By mistakes I mean very basic stuff like choosing maneuvers that are easily exploited by a knowledgeable opponent, or being careless with energy because they are used to a plane where E managment is of relatively little concern.

Most of the time the help they need is 95% breaking bad habits, and 5% aircraft model specifics.

So yes, it is very important to know your planes strengths and use them.  But it is also important to know the best tactical options for a given situation and making the right choices.  Making poor choices (out of ignorance or whatever) just because the planes performance can negate the downside of those poor choices is what I see as "relying on the plane".

[CAP1]

ok......here's my take on this.

about a year or so ago, when all i could fly was the spit9 or 5, i felt uber. i dies, just as i do now, but i felt like i could kill anything in that spitfire.
 then i ran in to 1duke1 in a p40. i don't remember which one it was, just thast it was a p40. he handed my arse back to me. he flew an inferior plane, in an inferior position,  and just plain out flew me.
 the reason i believe that happened, is because he actually knew how to maneuver that plane. he didn't depend on the aircraft do cover his mistakes. on the other hand, i think i was(and at times still do) depend on the "easy mode" aircraft to cover my mistakes.
 i'm discovering this flying some of the american rides. it's adding a new challenge to the game for me, and is oprobably looonnngggg overdue. i should';ve gotten out of the "easy mode" planes long ago.
 i also learned to NEVER under-estimate anything. i go into all fights assuming that their gonna make me work for my kill. unfortunatly, it still ends up the other way 'round more often than not. 

 so the point i took from the original post was....know your aircraft. know what it does well, and when. know how to make it do what you need it to. fly your fight, and you very well might come out on top.

<<S>>
 

[humble]

My intent anytime I post a clip here is to provide something that might be helpful to those with an interest in ACM at an intermediate level vs other aspects of game play. I've posted clips using a variety of planes but have settled on the A-20 primarily since its not a "fighter" but isn't as nimble as an SBD or similiar plane. Angles clips in a spitty or E fighting in a pony dont really highlight the ACM as much IMO.

For the most part any ACM you can do in an A-20 can be done with any fighter in the game...

"Most of the time the help they need is 95% breaking bad habits, and 5% aircraft model specifics."

Most ACM is somewhat universal, once you get an idea of what is "right" then you can delve further into what works best for a specific plane in general and then vs a specific opponent. I'm still learning the A-20 and am always looking to push its envelope further. Anytime I get a chance to fly vs a really good stick like slap i'll take advantage of the chance to polish my game a bit. Now if I cant be at all competitive then i'll up a different ride (probably a tempest vs slap:)). But if you look at the 24-26 second mark you'll see I get awful close to a solid shot. If I wasn't so heavy gas wise I might have pulled it off...if you got to the 45 sec to 115 segment there is a lot of good that I just couldnt quite get right. Now a lot of that is obviously slap, but my tempo and throttle work isnt quite up to snuff and i'm out of sync a bit vs whats in my mind.

So in my mind i'm still working on the "95%" here polishing my understanding of "good" ACM vs a quality adversary.

[dentin]

You must be as a reed in the wind, neither resisting nor giving way.

You have learned the lesson very well Grasshopper.     ..Sorry for the OT..just had to do it . 

[CAP1]

My intent anytime I post a clip here is to provide something that might be helpful to those with an interest in ACM at an intermediate level vs other aspects of game play. I've posted clips using a variety of planes but have settled on the A-20 primarily since its not a "fighter" but isn't as nimble as an SBD or similiar plane. Angles clips in a spitty or E fighting in a pony dont really highlight the ACM as much IMO.

and most...if not all of us appreciate when guys like you, murdr, yanks, akak, and the new dude, skytiger, among others post these films. it really does help us learn.

 was wondering though......has anyone ever posted actual MA films in which they were commenting on what they were doing, and why? during the fight? kinda like a commentary?

<<S>>

[Anaxogoras]

I got to this part and skipped the rest to reply.  I almost quoted and commented on humble's quotes last night.

I'm not sure what the point that humble inteneded was.  But I read "guys who seem to rely totally on the planes ability to outwork the other guy" part and there is a very good point in there.  What I observe very frequently are players who have been around awhile and have moderate sucess flying the "popular" planes, end up asking for help when they try to transition into one of the more average performing planes.  The problem?  They have been making basic and fundamental mistakes left and right but their normal rides performance masks or makes-up for their mistakes.  By mistakes I mean very basic stuff like choosing maneuvers that are easily exploited by a knowledgeable opponent, or being careless with energy because they are used to a plane where E managment is of relatively little concern.

Most of the time the help they need is 95% breaking bad habits, and 5% aircraft model specifics.

So yes, it is very important to know your planes strengths and use them.  But it is also important to know the best tactical options for a given situation and making the right choices.  Making poor choices (out of ignorance or whatever) just because the planes performance can negate the downside of those poor choices is what I see as "relying on the plane".

This is the kind of elucidation I needed, and I like this interpretation of "relying on the plane's ability."  What really threw me off and prevented me from reaching this version on my own is that it makes "relying on the plane's ability" relative to what the other guy is flying.  The Spit16 pilot can rely on his plane's ability vs a lot of the aircraft he can run down and outmaneuver.  He can make mistakes and still pull out a victory.  However, I can also rely on my plane's ability if I'm in a plane the Spit16 outclasses, e.g. the 109G-6, when I'm flying it against a P-40.

[gpwurzel]

From my perspective, think Humbles saying that whilst the plane (and its characteristics) may change, ACM doesnt - you might have to utilies various sequences of moves in different ways, but once you've got a good knowledge of ACM, you can work past the planes disadvantages etc.


(makes mental note, get some more trainer time)

On a side note, thank you to all the trainers for their time etc

<S>

Wurzel

[humble]

and most...if not all of us appreciate when guys like you, murdr, yanks, akak, and the new dude, skytiger, among others post these films. it really does help us learn.

 was wondering though......has anyone ever posted actual MA films in which they were commenting on what they were doing, and why? during the fight? kinda like a commentary?

<<S>>

anytime anyone asks I'll to an MA hop or two with them in whatever ride they want. I had clips on various planes but most of them are gone. This one is still up on the web and is an MA flight with a guy I had spent some time working with 1 on 1 awhile back...http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/MAhop.ahf

[SIK1]

was wondering though......has anyone ever posted actual MA films in which they were commenting on what they were doing, and why? during the fight? kinda like a commentary?
<<S>>

Look for Agent360's films. He does some where he narrates what he is doing during the fight. Very informative, and I find them to be a great learning tool.