Dont think plane....think ACM

[humble]

Hmmm if we give each chess player a .45 and let the winner shoot the loser I wonder how much more common those "swindles" will be.

[Anaxogoras]

Hmmm if we give each chess player a .45 and let the winner shoot the loser I wonder how much more common those "swindles" will be.

   I don't think anyone would play!

[BnZs]

I think there is an unfortunate tendency is this game right now to define only some variation of angles fighting as "good fighting"

I also think I might understand what Anax trying to get well enough to illustrate through film.

Okay, on this film, after clearing a guy's six, I avoid a pass by a N1K and flame it.

http://www.mediafire.com/?mmpdfn4aayl


On this film, I run down a P-51 and shoot it.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jntergzg359

Now, by the standards some of you guys are espousing, I do much better ACM by setting the N1K on fire than I do in the 190 film, because I start from a disadvantage in a supposedly un-uber "early" fighter. I disagree. The fact that I get the N1K is purely a matter of a chain of mistakes on his part and a little luck on mine. He comes in a with excessive closure. I give him a bad angle. He does not have the patience or discipline to go vertical and set up another shot. He does not succeed with the shot against the bad angle. He does not immediately switch to the vertical, but chases a bad solution. The guns on a 110 are enough to make hay on the least little fleeting snapshot that I am lucky enough to hit. Note that if I had been in the supposedly more "uber" LW P-51/D9/P-47 with less low-speed maneuverability and lesser guns I would actually have had alot more trouble making the N1K pay.

Now look at the 190D film. I found this kill much more satisfying because it was based strictly on using good energy management to overcome a more maneuverable fighter 1v1, not on gross mistakes by my opponent, luck or insane gunnery on my part. Even though this was definitely an "off" gunnery day for me, I fly myself to easy gun solutions to get the kill, never loose control of the encounter or find myself in real danger from the opposition. To me this was based much more on real ACM and strategy rather than one part trickery and one part luck. Like I say, more satisfying.

And comparing this P-51 kill to the P-51 kill on the first film, I can only say that I feel the supposedly "uber" late war Mustang would have stood a much better chance against another Mustang or a D9 closing in on its six than it did against the 110's turning and guns.

[The Fugitive]

All I'll say about the first is you forced the NIK into his bad position with your ACM, due to him being a newb he tried to force a bad situation and it cost him. The pony "fight" in the first film can't be used in any comparison. You picked a target fixated newb, nothing more. The guy had trouble closing for a shot. Of course what can you expect from furball lake in the DA The guy never knew you where there.

The second film I'd consider a more "like plane" engagement. The planes are very similar. Yes you maintained your "E better to close and get a good shot. I wonder tho, watching the film from the ponies seat makes me think that he may have been flying with some damage. Even when hes running flat out he's working his nose all over the place. Looks to me like he might have been missing a wing tip tho the film doesn't show it. He is yawing to the left quite a bit.

Neither fight shows what we are talking about. First film is clubing baby seals, and second looks to be chasing down a wounded pup.

[BnZs]

I mentioned the first kill on that film was merely clearing a guy's six. I left that part in the film so that I might segue into my bit about how the late war "uber-fighter" is not nessecarily so uber if you have the speed to catch it in an "antique".

P-51 in the second film is missing no parts in the outset. These films will show you missing parts. If you go into the other pilot's view and he has a PW, it will show you. This P-51 pilot had neither. Nor does a P-51 fly so fast so long or manage break turns in both directions below 300 mph without flipping while missing a wingtip. I actually chased that thing for about 4 minutes that I cut out.

Funny, Batfink has posted about a million films with overshoot kills in his Mossie like the one in my 110 film. Of course, there are guys telling him that what he does is based at least partially on the mistakes of the other pilot too, which is true to an extent, but I doubt you are in those threads being dismissive and saying "mere baby seal clubbing." Same principles, same attack, same setup, same shot...after all, I learned it by watching those Bat films. Judge things by the "brand name" much?

Trying to come up with some excuse to discredit these bits of my flying because you disagree with me philosophically about the game...not good or becoming to you, all I gotta say for that.

[The Fugitive]

I'm sorry I didn't stroke your ego here, but clubbing baby seals is just that clubbing baby seals. How can you possibly use that information to support a point here? First the guy you "picked" was lead strait to your guns. All he knows of SA is that they are 2 letters in the alphabet. As for the NIK, same thing, over speed on his run cuts out a lot of options. His only thought was to "pick" you....and it almost worked as you were fixated on the pony. Had your aim been a bit worst so it took you a second longer you would have been just as dead. All you proved here is with a big club (cannons of a 110) you can kill baby seals. Had someone with average skills been in the NIK or the pony things may have come out a bit different.

As for the second film, I wasn't sure if plane damage was show on other planes in the films. While watching the film it just looks like chalenges plane is yawing a lot to the left while trying to run strait. He has been around awhile and knows the pony pretty well so I thought he would have had a much steadier hand while trying to extend. To you it was a "memorable kill", to me it was a chase down in like planes. Chalenge didn't fight you, it looks like he was just trying to get away either due to damage, no ammo, or saving his score. Either way it wasn't much of a fight.

We are talking about using your ACM to get the kill, not by using the strengths of your plane. In both of these films you use strengths. Cannons on newbs in the first, and speed and cannons on someone who didn't want to fight in the second.

[dentin]

   ---snip--

J
All of what I learn is applicable in general, specific to the hurricane in any plane and finally in my quest to leanr how to beat a hurricane even up in an SBD (which i'm 90% confidant I can do)...

The fact that you admit to "90% confidant" is gonna bite you in the butt.   The missing 10% needs to be incorporated into your "positive thinking processes".  Your either "in the zone" or your not. Anyone that enters a situation with the slightest doubt is pretty much defeated  before he/she begins...IMMHO. YMMV....works for me...etc, etc. 

[Anaxogoras]

While watching the film it just looks like chalenges plane is yawing a lot to the left while trying to run strait. He has been around awhile and knows the pony pretty well so I thought he would have had a much steadier hand while trying to extend.

AH film does a very poor job of representing the actual movements of other aircraft.  I've watched myself in other people's films and it looks like my aircraft is porpoising all over the place, when in fact it was smooth flight.  What you can see in BnZ's film is that Challenge's P51 accelerates and reaches 300mph+ speeds just fine like a normal P-51 should.  I see nothing suspect there.

I also saw good ACM in the P-51 film: lag rolls and high yo-yos are the order of the day to overcome a more maneuverable bandit.  The reason why you don't see the 51 go offensive is because BnZ doesn't make a mistake.  Challenge likely realized this 190 pilot was going to be patient and keep working his advantage for as long as necessary to bring him down, and therefore decided to look for help.

Fugitive, I think you're being overly negative here.  You keep going on and on about baby seals, but the whole point was that BnZ found the P-51 kill more satisfying because it was a more challenging kill.  The kill against the N1K was a merely the exploitation of a big fat mistake, which is exactly the kind of stuff that was praised early on in this thread.

[humble]

Chalenge is a good stick and I got no indication he had any problem at the start beyond poor circumstance (unless he had a PW). However he flew that particular flight very poorly and to the weakness of the pony. I'd guess he's got a lot more experience E fighting the pony from a position of either advantage or with some air under his wings. Had BnZ faced a more seasoned pony driver he's have had a much harder time. As for B&Z's flying it was decent but not great. It was safe & secure but would have had little chance of success vs a good pony driver. At no time did he actually force an error...

That is not ment to be disparaging to the fight flown. It efficient and successful and different responses from the pony might well have brought about different responses. My observation is that the fight went on to long and left B&Z exposed to intervention. The other aspect is that the 190 is not a plane designed to be anything other then a scavenger. This is not really an "ACM" fight but an opportunity fight where success was dictated by circumstance.

Here would be my SBD equivalent
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBD%20109%20bounce.ahf

I expect to win a fight from a position of advantage. I also don't want the fight to linger or to give my opponent the chance to gain an even footing or get outside help.

[The Fugitive]

AH film does a very poor job of representing the actual movements of other aircraft.  I've watched myself in other people's films and it looks like my aircraft is porpoising all over the place, when in fact it was smooth flight.  What you can see in BnZ's film is that Challenge's P51 accelerates and reaches 300mph+ speeds just fine like a normal P-51 should.  I see nothing suspect there.

I also saw good ACM in the P-51 film: lag rolls and high yo-yos are the order of the day to overcome a more maneuverable bandit.  The reason why you don't see the 51 go offensive is because BnZ doesn't make a mistake.  Challenge likely realized this 190 pilot was going to be patient and keep working his advantage for as long as necessary to bring him down, and therefore decided to look for help.

Fugitive, I think you're being overly negative here.  You keep going on and on about baby seals, but the whole point was that BnZ found the P-51 kill more satisfying because it was a more challenging kill.  The kill against the N1K was a merely the exploitation of a big fat mistake, which is exactly the kind of stuff that was praised early on in this thread.

All the films and points are what "should" happen, or what one "should" do. Stepping out side the box or using ACM to force a mistake is what we are talking about. Had I been in the pony in either film the fights would have gone fare different. I'm not saying I would have won, but a skilled stick would have with ease. In the first film my SA would have been better and I would have broken off the first con and done a slow climbing extend. This would have either split the two cons (one run for home or look for an easier target), or gotten both in the same view and plane so they would have been more manageable. And the fight would have been on.

In the second, I wouldn't have run. No other cons in the area I would have fought. I'd have slowed a bit to bring the target in closer and go for an over shoot move much like BnZ did against the NIK in the first film. Had he pushed for the shot hard enough I would have had a shot as he blew by. I would continue this untill he either ran to reset his "E", or one of us was in the tower.  Sure BnZ enjoyed the fight in the second film, but had he had to fight harder, push his plane into that area where its NOT so comfortable Wouldn't the fight have been more memorable... more fun.... more exciting? That's what this game is about, not who has the best score, who has the most kills and so on.

As a matter of fact I think they should add a new scoring category. "Top ten fights of the month". No cherry picks, no vulches, no gang fights. Just knock down drag out hard fought fights.

[Steve]

Never mind that their validation comes from picks and vulches, in their minds it makes them the big men of the game.

Everyone in the game picks... including you. It never fails to amuse me when people start crying about "pickers".  In a furball of 10v10, there isn't 10 1v1's all going on in the same area. News flash, some guy that turns his plane in circles is not necessarily any more skilled than some guy who e fights.

[Anaxogoras]

I think there is an unfortunate tendency is this game right now to define only some variation of angles fighting as "good fighting"

Quoted for truth.

[humble]

I don't mean to imply that at all. E fighting (both + & -) is the true expression of ACM. In the game we play we take a historical plane and place it in artificial situations (outside of FSO and scenario's). A plane with superior performance and superior positioning is normally expected to win...and IMO so is the inferior plane with superior position. So the real question is what happens when two planes meet under relatively even conditions or ones that allow enough time for creativity. I dont ever truly angle fight an A-20...just doesnt have it in her. I do work for neg E to pos E transitions and back all the time which may look like "angles" but its not. I'm relying on a manufactured discrepancy in E state.

My issue with any clip that doesn't start from a neutral or inferior position is that it normally shows the exploitation of initial advantage...nothing more.

[Anaxogoras]

A plane with superior performance and superior positioning is normally expected to win...and IMO so is the inferior plane with superior position.

Not necessarily.  It frequently happens that if both pilots fly correctly, the most the attacker ends up with is a stalemate in the form of a tail-chase back to his own territory.  E.g. a superior plane like a 190D-9 attacks a Spitfire IX.

Of course, everything is different if it's a 2vs2 fight.

[humble]

Not necessarily.  It frequently happens that if both pilots fly correctly, the most the attacker ends up with is a stalemate in the form of a tail-chase back to his own territory.  E.g. a superior plane like a 190D-9 attacks a Spitfire IX.

Of course, everything is different if it's a 2vs2 fight.

No...

If I have a position of superiority I will in fact kill you a vast majority of the time. There is not a single thing the inferior pilot can do to prevent me from killing him unless he forces an error or survives my attack. I lost a fight in an A-20 vs a 110 (not sure if I have the film or not). Now this the 1st time I recall ever losing a 1 on 1 to a 110 in an A-20 in the MA that wasnt a pure bounce type situation. I took out 1/2 his cannon and his tail gunner but missed the pilot somehow and was left hung out...so it happens.

Now I do not fly "safe"...if i have a positional advantage i'm going to lock on in 30 seconds or less almost all the time. I do not B&Z. Now if my superiority is marginal I might be more passive or not...but the stronger my position the more abrupt my attack.