Author Topic: Couple films  (Read 1996 times)

Offline Murdr

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Couple films
« on: November 14, 2008, 11:04:00 AM »
Been awhile since I've posted any.  I uploaded 2 general main arena play type films if anyone's interested.
TT1engin.ahf
justfurballn.ahf

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2008, 11:24:36 AM »
Thanks for posting these!  I look forward to taking a close look at them later this afternoon!

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Offline humble

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2008, 11:44:15 AM »
Got a chance to watch 1st half of the TT one before a business call interrupted. I'm always intrigued by flying with the gun sight zoomed like that but never seem to get comfortable. Outside of SA and ACM what struck me was what seemed to be throttle use to manage the blind spots in the front view...on or off the gas to get the con out of the crossbar or out from under the nose....it's subtle but given how often a lot of guys (including me) "lose kills" when we get changed up while the con is tucked in the art work...

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2008, 12:18:05 PM »
Still haven't found the films I'm looking for, but I ran across a couple more while looking...
TTbounce.ahf  (on the defensive quite a bit)
midwar.ahf


Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2008, 06:53:03 PM »
Something a bit different...Flying around in Spits

fieldD.ahf  -This one turns into a head on a swivel, no friendlies in the air situation...was fun.

gixer.ahf  -Slumming it in a spit.  A couple fun fights.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2008, 07:35:18 PM »
Last one for awhile.

2poniesMW.ahf -first I find my poor P-38 being bounced by a pair of ponies winging together.  After I'm low and slow, and finishing the 2nd pony...I have the luck of being jumped by a very good stick in a hellcat.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 07:50:02 PM »
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, try to HO' the P-38.


Last one for awhile.

2poniesMW.ahf -first I find my poor P-38 being bounced by a pair of ponies winging together.  After I'm low and slow, and finishing the 2nd pony...I have the luck of being jumped by a very good stick in a hellcat.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2008, 08:15:47 PM »
DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, try to HO' the P-38.


LOL.  All things considered, starting E, pilots, plane match-up, I was happy to even get a 'guns first' merge after comming up short on the previous 2 merges.  We chatted afterwards, and I kind of surprised him when I reversed and zoomed after he pulled off the second attack.  I think I'd have lost if I hadn't taken the opportunity to be agressive.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 09:52:52 PM »
I guess the part I don't understand is having the E and a plane that turns as well/better and going for some rather low percentage shots from infront of the 3/9 line rather than taking the patient route and using that E to set up for a saddle and rear quarter shot...if that makes any sense, sorry, my terminology is probably most gauche.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 10:00:48 PM »
I guess the part I don't understand is having the E and a plane that turns as well/better and going for some rather low percentage shots from infront of the 3/9 line rather than taking the patient route and using that E to set up for a saddle and rear quarter shot...if that makes any sense, sorry, my terminology is probably most gauche.

You know, I was thinking about this quite a bit earlier this evening.  Here's a clip of a fight I had earlier today.  I wasn't really flying a better turner but after reviewing the film, I think that I really pushed too hard trying to pull lead when a lag pursuit might have set me up for a better shot.  Of course, better gunnery might have ended it sooner.  He did present me with a good planform shot at one point, which I missed.  I would be interested to hear what more experienced sticks have to say about the enagement.  I find that I can learn by watching my own films, but sometimes I wonder what I am missing since I don't have the experience to fully understand what I am seeing most of the time.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335ca321633ea72b60a23

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Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 11:37:12 PM »
You know, I was thinking about this quite a bit earlier this evening.  Here's a clip of a fight I had earlier today.  I wasn't really flying a better turner but after reviewing the film, I think that I really pushed too hard trying to pull lead when a lag pursuit might have set me up for a better shot.  Of course, better gunnery might have ended it sooner.  He did present me with a good planform shot at one point, which I missed.  I would be interested to hear what more experienced sticks have to say about the enagement.  I find that I can learn by watching my own films, but sometimes I wonder what I am missing since I don't have the experience to fully understand what I am seeing most of the time.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335ca321633ea72b60a23

Look at TT1engin.ahf at around 1:00.  I am setting up a merge with a spit.  He is intentionally not in my forward view.  I want to merge with him in a way that will make him pass through my lift vector, and I want my lift vector above the horizon (because I intend my first turn to be nose high).  This gives me the option to turn into him early on the merge.  If I can get position to have him pass through my lift vector.  I want to get separation at the merge.  This offsets our turn radius and gives me the opportunity to finish a reversal inside his turn circle (figure below).  .



If you had applied that kind of approach to the merge followed by a more vertical turn, you should have been able to have guns on him within a 270 degree turn after the merge when his first maneuver was a flat turn.

It looked like you were often mirroring his maneuvers, and trying to keep your lift vector on him.  Once you get in trail, or at least on his side of the circle, that's the right thing to do with your lift vector.  But when you are still in a merge-to-merge portion of the fight, you'll want your lift vector pointing toward your next turn.  Your next turn should be whatever BFM will best counter your opponents turn, and that may be "out of plane" with your opponent.

The first turn after the merge he did a nose high flat turn and you followed suit.  Had you done an immelman or pitchback you could have gained angles (film example).  At 0:48 he inverted into a split-s, you followed suit.  Initiating a flat turn, and then rolling your lift vector to follow as he passed by would have gained you angles (film example).

Other than that, something I really noticed was you were giving up too much energy dialing back the throttle.  You were in trail for awhile, but you gave up so much speed that you allowed the spit enough separation to reverse almost nose-on back into you.  There are times when you may want to be off the throttle briefly, but it looked to me like you were overdoing it.  I am looking at both my projected flight path/angle-off, and separation when judging whether to adjust the throttle.  If you are not in danger of overshooting, you'll usually want all the thrust you can get.  Even if your turn is G limited by your speed, at full power you're still at a thrust deficit due to all the induced drag you're producing with your maneuvering.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2008, 11:54:12 PM »
I guess the part I don't understand is having the E and a plane that turns as well/better and going for some rather low percentage shots from infront of the 3/9 line rather than taking the patient route and using that E to set up for a saddle and rear quarter shot...if that makes any sense, sorry, my terminology is probably most gauche.
I forced the issue by trying to reverse into his turn circle when he pulled up and gave me the separation.  He countered by instead maneuvering inside my turn circle...twice.  I often go for the same opportuinty when I see I can gain the inside line when maneuvering from merge-to-merge.  The final merge was a bit of an oddball situation.  I stalled into my next maneuver with my nose dropping around at fast dps, and we were in the narrow portion of the envelope where I would already have a 2 dps turn rate advantage.  I doubt he expected me to be able to end up nose on with the inside line on the next merge.   

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 12:11:53 AM »
Look at TT1engin.ahf at around 1:00.  I am setting up a merge with a spit.  He is intentionally not in my forward view.  I want to merge with him in a way that will make him pass through my lift vector, and I want my lift vector above the horizon (because I intend my first turn to be nose high).  This gives me the option to turn into him early on the merge.  If I can get position to have him pass through my lift vector.  I want to get separation at the merge.  This offsets our turn radius and gives me the opportunity to finish a reversal inside his turn circle (figure below).  .

(Image removed from quote.)

If you had applied that kind of approach to the merge followed by a more vertical turn, you should have been able to have guns on him within a 270 degree turn after the merge when his first maneuver was a flat turn.

It looked like you were often mirroring his maneuvers, and trying to keep your lift vector on him.  Once you get in trail, or at least on his side of the circle, that's the right thing to do with your lift vector.  But when you are still in a merge-to-merge portion of the fight, you'll want your lift vector pointing toward your next turn.  Your next turn should be whatever BFM will best counter your opponents turn, and that may be "out of plane" with your opponent.

The first turn after the merge he did a nose high flat turn and you followed suit.  Had you done an immelman or pitchback you could have gained angles (film example).  At 0:48 he inverted into a split-s, you followed suit.  Initiating a flat turn, and then rolling your lift vector to follow as he passed by would have gained you angles (film example).

Other than that, something I really noticed was you were giving up too much energy dialing back the throttle.  You were in trail for awhile, but you gave up so much speed that you allowed the spit enough separation to reverse almost nose-on back into you.  There are times when you may want to be off the throttle briefly, but it looked to me like you were overdoing it.  I am looking at both my projected flight path/angle-off, and separation when judging whether to adjust the throttle.  If you are not in danger of overshooting, you'll usually want all the thrust you can get.  Even if your turn is G limited by your speed, at full power you're still at a thrust deficit due to all the induced drag you're producing with your maneuvering.


Thanks for taking a look.

I watched the film clip you provided from the point you mentioned.  It looked to me like your opponent would have ended up nose to nose with you if he had carried his initial merge through its complete arc.  Granted, a nose to nose situation isnt ideal with a P38, perhaps that is why he rolled away.

I get what you are saying about the merge, in fact, I didnt realize how shallow my vertical component was until I watched the film.  Clearly something I need to work on.  I'm also interested in roughly 1:20ish on...  My opponent starts a barrel roll, in my desire to get my guns on him I didn't follow the shape of his roll and tried to "cut him off".  At that point, do you think I would have been better off to follow him through the barrel roll in more of a pursuit mode? 

As for my throttle work, I've been working on trying to stay near my plane's corner speed lately.  Perhaps that is the wrong thing to do?

I apologize for picking your brain here on the BBS, but it has been the best avenue to gather information for me so far.  I've had little luck connecting up with Trainers as of late, and honestly desire a more committed trainer/trainee relationship then you guys in the Training Corps are really able to offer considering the size of the community.

Maybe I'm a bit thicker than most others, but I really only effectively learn one concept at a time...   :confused:

I wonder if you might take a look at this next film...  A very similar fight...  I think I had a better merge, maybe....  Perhaps I'm still fiddling with the throttle more than i should...

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=ea9273c6ecfdbe5dab1eab3e9fa335ca321633ea72b60a23
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 01:16:21 AM by PFactorDave »

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Offline Murdr

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 01:38:56 AM »
I'm also interested in roughly 1:20ish on...  My opponent starts a barrel roll, in my desire to get my guns on him I didn't follow the shape of his roll and tried to "cut him off".  At that point, do you think I would have been better off to follow him through the barrel roll in more of a pursuit mode? 
Your separation was fairly consistant, as was your angle off.  The thing to worry about is if you are closing up quickly on your opponent, and see no hope of gaining guns before overshooting.

As for my throttle work, I've been working on trying to stay near my plane's corner speed lately.  Perhaps that is the wrong thing to do?
Let's look at the chart you reposted in another thread...

If you and your opponent are near co-E, and both above Cv, you both have a similar G limit.  You may gain dps by slowing down closer to Cv, but in the process you'll lose separation and relative E vs your opponent.  Give up enough separation, and you give your opponent room to maneuver back into you.  Give up too much energy, and as the fight speed deteriorates, your opponent can end up with superior maneuver options.

I would say constantly pursuing Cv speed is the wrong priority.  Energy is a commodity on which you can win or lose the fight.  Energy managment vs your opponents E state should be a primary priority.  Sometimes it's appropriate to scrub E, but more commonly it's appropriate to conserve it, or use it at a pace slightly less than your opponent is using theirs.

Keep in mind that Cv is a fleeting portion of the envelope.  You can't sustain max dps at Cv without altitude loss, and eventually you'll run out of altitude to lose.  So when you do seek that part of the envelope, you want a "payoff" in the brief time you can sustain it. 

A good way to consider it may be to call it a "target of opportuity".  If you can get to Cv without losing position, and separation; and it will likely "close the deal" that would be the time to consider scrubbing E to get there.  Really the same could be said about any part of the envelope that can gain the advantage.  With your Ki vs my 38 I would want to guide the fight to intermediate speeds where I can use flaps and you can't.  But I can't carelessly throw away E to get there.  I have to wait until that part of the envelope is within reach and then try to take advantage of it and sustain it as long enough to gain the advantage or win the fight.

Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Couple films
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2008, 01:54:55 AM »
I guess my biggest problem is that I am not ready for the level you are trying to teach, and I don't know where to find the instruction that bridges the gap.  I really do understand the concepts you are talking about, in theory at least.  But putting them to practice is apparently escaping me.  I've had some good experiences with a few trainers, but like you, they tend to talk beyond my level a bit.  Everything you said makes perfect sense to me, but how I should have applied it to the fights in question escapes me.  Sorry.

The films I posted were both against Spit8s, which I typically would consider better turners then my Ki84.  I've had very little luck entering such fights at top speed in my Ki84 (full throttle all the time), much more luck lately when I enter the fights much closer to Cv, and keep it closer to that.  I can only hope that this awareness of my cornering speed and management thereof is taking me beyond the average MA flyer and eventually will open doors to a more nuanced approach.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 02:02:47 AM by PFactorDave »

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