You don't NEED a gun simplified.

[Rich46yo]

Wow.  Your the pinnacle of civil debate, aren't you?

If our crime reporting is so infalliable than why would we employ two different statistical methods?  The UCR and the NCVS?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/appendices/07-append04.html

Rich46yo, your arguments smack of elitism.

Vulcan, you aren't helping with this crap either.

I wasn't talking to you Bong. Your argument smacks of nosiness. I don't even know what NCVS means or stands for, I'm just an uneducated ghetto beat cop. Hows that for "elitism"? But just maybe I have a bit of insight after these decades on the street side.

Stand up for Vulcan and you might be grouped with him. And he's a fool.

[bongaroo]

Take the time to read just a wee bit in the link and you'll find all you need to know about the NCVS.  It even discusses it's differences with the UCR.

Was covered in the first week of my intro to Criminal Justice course.  High School stuff.

As for my defending Vulcan; I stepped in to agree that crime reports and statistics are indeed often misleading.

I don't really want to take either of your sides anymore, your both arguing like 13 year olds would.

[Rich46yo]

I don't really want to take either of your sides anymore, your both arguing like 13 year olds would.

Dont try and fool Uncle Rich. Uncle Rich knows you are reading this. Yes,yes,yes,yes,yes. You cant fool uncle Rich.

Take the time to read just a wee bit in the link and you'll find all you need to know about the NCVS.  It even discusses it's differences with the UCR.

I just spent 25 years without even reading UCR. Why would I read NCVS, "whatever that is". Who cares?

Was covered in the first week of my intro to Criminal Justice course.  High School stuff.

I spent my high school years killing brain cells. And the last 25 trying to keep alive the few I have left. Oh I took criminal justice in college  What can I say my friend? Except, "da class doan be ateachin da street".

As for my defending Vulcan; I stepped in to agree that crime reports and statistics are indeed often misleading.

"Misleading" doesnt even come close to describing this nonsense. Ive seen "armies" sent out to catch the rapist of a rich white girl and "armies of 1" sent out to catch the killer of some poor black kid who happened to live in the wrong zip code. I could fill a book on the crap Ive seen with stats, numbers, paper, and crime. Poor folks report crime too. We "society" just don't give a damn about it.

Anyway, have a nice day. Sorry if my style hurt your feelings.

[bongaroo]

I just spent 25 years without even reading UCR. Why would I read NCVS, "whatever that is". Who cares?

You don't have to read any NCVS report.  But reading a simple description of what it is won't hurt and I would think you would care.  Your the one picking a bone of contention with Vulcan about crime reporting and statistics.

Here, let me spoon feed it to you in case you decide to care about "whatever it is".

The U.S. Department of Justice administers two statistical programs to measure the magnitude, nature, and impact of crime in the Nation:  the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program and the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).  Each of these programs produces valuable information about aspects of the Nation's crime problem.  Because the UCR and NCVS programs are conducted for different purposes, use different methods, and focus on somewhat different aspects of crime, the information they produce together provides a more comprehensive panorama of the Nation's crime problem than either could produce alone.
----------------------------------------------
The NCVS collects information on crimes suffered by individuals and households, whether or not those crimes were reported to law enforcement.  It estimates the proportion of each crime type reported to law enforcement, and it summarizes the reasons that victims give for reporting or not reporting.

Anyway, have a nice day. Sorry if my style hurt your feelings.

Now I'm confused.  Do you want disscussion or are you just here to troll?  You try to make your point but when provided the opportunity to learn something new and relevant to the conversation you "don't care" or can't be bothered to read.

[Vulcan]

He finally bends his brow and he comes up with this. Have you lost your mind? They teach you this in school?

You think if somebody is shot, killed, raped, robbed,burgled, theft, they aren't going to report it in high crime areas? People can pick up their cell phones and make reports on the phone now days. My hands go numb from all the reports I write.

If theres any magic show going on its down at a Police stats office where they can go <poof> and turn water into wine.

Look again sweetie. ? 

Any law enforcement agency will tell you that reporting varies. For example a simple shove in a low crime area will be reported as an assault, in a high crime area it will most likely go unreported. Back to the donuts rich

[Rich46yo]

What are your qualifications to even have this discussion with me? Both of you. Vulcan and his lawyer.

None?

Then see below.

[bongaroo]

What are your qualifications to even have this discussion with me? Both of you. Vulcan and his lawyer.

None?

Then see below.

I claim 9 credit hours in Criminal Justice study and an interest in the subject we were discussing.  I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic though.  Just like their isn't something about non-USA citizens posting, I didn't realize we were to be vetted before posting!
Dunno about Vulcan but he seems civil and willing to discuss the subject.

With the quality of your last couple of response's I'm really not seeing a point to this thread anymore.

[Vulcan]

With the quality of your last couple of response's I'm really not seeing a point to this thread anymore.

Me either, I have a response, but it's not worth typing.

[Shuffler]

Incorrect. The thing with comparing crime rates is quite often the worse the true crime rate the lower the reported crimes, and in countries with low crime rates there is a higher rate of reporting for more minor offences. Look at gun murder rates as true example, in the USA you're 29 times that of NZ - and NZ still has a relatively high gun ownership level (especially compared to the UK), forgot what it was vs the UK.

Yeah vulcan..... now try per capita. NZ has about as many folks as Houston Texas.

[Vulcan]

Yeah vulcan..... now try per capita. NZ has about as many folks as Houston Texas.

OK, your 29 times more likely to be murdered by a firearm in the USA PER CAPITA vs NZ PER CAPITA.

Happy now? Do you people not go to school in the South? The total murders rate vs NZ is actually 9,369:10, or in simple terms there are 936.9 (yes NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY SIX POINT NINE) people in the USA killed by a gun for every person in NZ killed by a gun.

Now, the gun ownership rate in NZ is ~ 1 firearm for every 4 people. There's 4 million people, and 1.1 million firearms (and growing). So there's no lack of firearms, now you do the numbers and tell me why you're 29 times more likely to be shoot and die than me?

[mtnman]

OK, your 29 times more likely to be murdered by a firearm in the USA PER CAPITA vs NZ PER CAPITA.

Happy now? Do you people not go to school in the South? The total murders rate vs NZ is actually 9,369:10, or in simple terms there are 936.9 (yes NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY SIX POINT NINE) people in the USA killed by a gun for every person in NZ killed by a gun.

Now, the gun ownership rate in NZ is ~ 1 firearm for every 4 people. There's 4 million people, and 1.1 million firearms (and growing). So there's no lack of firearms, now you do the numbers and tell me why you're 29 times more likely to be shoot and die than me?

That's kind of interesting, isn't it?  An area with more guns per capita has less firearm deaths per capita than an area with fewer guns per capita? 

Could it mean that guns don't kill people, but are simply a tool used by bad people to do bad things?  If we took the tool away, would they be good then?  Or just use a different tool. 

I must admit, I've used the top edge of a crescent wrench, or even the handle of a screw driver when my hammer was the better tool but wasn't easily available...  And I once used a vise-grips to change a tire when it was discovered that the lug wrench had vanished.  In the end, the tire was just as fixed as it would have been had I had the "better" tool.  Could that mean that bad people would just use a different tool to accomplish they're bad act if we took the preferred tool away?

[ink]

That's kind of interesting, isn't it?  An area with more guns per capita has less firearm deaths per capita than an area with fewer guns per capita? 

Could it mean that guns don't kill people, but are simply a tool used by bad people to do bad things?  If we took the tool away, would they be good then?  Or just use a different tool. 

I must admit, I've used the top edge of a crescent wrench, or even the handle of a screw driver when my hammer was the better tool but wasn't easily available...  And I once used a vise-grips to change a tire when it was discovered that the lug wrench had vanished.  In the end, the tire was just as fixed as it would have been had I had the "better" tool.  Could that mean that bad people would just use a different tool to accomplish they're bad act if we took the preferred tool away?

of course they would, i get sick of these people who try to tell us that guns are "bad", its a f#@king joke,

just like the neighbor i had who complained that i had piranha, in my house,"there such evil fish". same person called the cops because i had Alligators in my house!! to bad when the cops showed up, they were so impressed with my enclosure, they told me i did an incredible job, and they were not expecting to see what they did, they were told that they were loose and running around my house and were a danger to my kids! well the cops left and i kept my Alligators.
  point being Ya if i let them run around my house they would have been dangerous BUT i did not, so they were not!!!!!!!
 same thing with guns, except guns, its even more so such an idiotic idea that guns are "evil", and if you believe that guns are "evil" you are an idiot plain and simple!!!!!!

[SFRT - Frenchy]

French saying : "People that know the least have the strongest opinions"

I was anti guns ownership, started top research about them, go to the range and gunshows. Last weekend as a matter of fact, I was at Salt Lake's gun show, a teen girl was waiting in line with an Ak47 on her back. Would have horrified me a couple of years ago, but now I felt "rock on kid".

It's like many things, you see half bred with guns that ruin it for everybody else.

[Shuffler]

OK, your 29 times more likely to be murdered by a firearm in the USA PER CAPITA vs NZ PER CAPITA.

Happy now? Do you people not go to school in the South? The total murders rate vs NZ is actually 9,369:10, or in simple terms there are 936.9 (yes NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY SIX POINT NINE) people in the USA killed by a gun for every person in NZ killed by a gun.

Now, the gun ownership rate in NZ is ~ 1 firearm for every 4 people. There's 4 million people, and 1.1 million firearms (and growing). So there's no lack of firearms, now you do the numbers and tell me why you're 29 times more likely to be shoot and die than me?

The US has about 350 million folks including illegals. So about 87.75% more folks. So per capita the US would be much less than NZ.

[Vulcan]

That's kind of interesting, isn't it?  An area with more guns per capita has less firearm deaths per capita than an area with fewer guns per capita? 

mtnman, the USA has MORE deaths per capita. Even if you take more guns into account the USA still has 10x more deaths per capita.

Seriously, do you guys not understand per capita?