Author Topic: Design your own airplane  (Read 21717 times)

Offline Bronk

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2008, 09:10:24 PM »
Mike do you have anything on the spits using 150?
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2008, 10:30:43 PM »
Then again, if the tail end inhales a 30mm and blows the aft end off, the damn thing is a flying wing.


STILL brings you home (with careful throttle and aileron adjustment).

I can attest on good authority the only place the Hog goes after the entire aft end is shot off is straight down. If you think you're seeing otherwise you obviously didn't score as clean a hit as you thought.

No rudder? Missing elevators? Lost the wingtip? Yup, that Hog can limp home (can't tell you how many times I lost half a wing and was left for dead, only to ease out of my spiral and sneak away when the bad guy moved on to other targets). But lose the whole tail, or vertical or horizontal stabs, and unless you're REALLY slow and REALLY low to the ground to squeak out a ditch you're screwed.

Anyway, Mike:

How about the Hogs? Anything on the USN/MC playing with it.
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Offline Mike Williams

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »
Hi Rebel and WWhiskey:  I’m glad you got something out of those postings.  Saxman:  regarding Hogs, let me look into it when I have more time.  I know the Navy was using 115/145 octane fuel at some point.  It was speced for the F4U-4

Offline Mike Williams

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2008, 10:29:45 AM »
Hello Bronk:  The following is culled from various pages at WWIIaircraftperformance.org, in particular Spitfire IX Performance Testing, Spitfire XIV Performance Testing, Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K, A Performance Comparison and 100/150 Grade Fuel.

During 1942 and 1943 the British started testing fuels that allowed for higher engine powers than were possible using the standard fuel of the time. Testing of a Spitfire IX  by Rolls Royce, Hucknall in October 1943 determined:

  • The increase of boost pressure to 25 lbs/sq.inch provides a considerable improvement in the low altitude performance of the Spitfire IX aircraft, the necessary modifications to achieve this being comparatively simple.(1)

The same aircraft was tested by the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment (A.& A.E.E.), Boscombe Down November 1943, the conclusion being:

  • An increase of about 950 ft/min in rate of climb and about 30 mph in all-out level speed is achieved by the increase of boost from +18 lb/sq.in. to +25 lb/sq.in.(2)

Following successful testing, the Spitfire IX's Merlin 66 was cleared in March 1944 to use +25 lbs boost, obtainable with 150 grade fuel.(3)  In early May, No. 1 and No. 165 Squadrons comprising the Predannack Wing, were the first units to convert their Spitfires to +25 lbs boost and employ 150 grade fuel on operations.(4) (5)  Air Defense Great Britain (A.D.G.B.) shared a report, dated 16th June 1944 with A.E.A.F. summarizing the RAF's experience with using 150 Grade Fuel in Merlin 66 engines. (6)   All pilots reported most favorably on the value of the high boost pressures obtainable with 150 Grade Fuel, however, Technical Staff felt that before the fuel was introduced on a large scale that the causes of backfires must be established and that at least 12 engines should complete 200 hours each.  The backfire issues were resolved by August. (7)  The increased performance obtained with 150 Grade Fuel was put to good use by Mustangs, Tempests and Spitfires in intercepting Buzz Bombs launched against Britain beginning mid June.    Performance increases at sea level for the Spitfires were as follows:  Spitfire IX - 335 mph increased to 358 mph;  Spitfire XIV – 359 mph increased to 366-370 mph.

On 18 September 1944 A.D.G.B. very positively summarized the experience gained to date using 100/150 grade fuel.(8)  However, due primarily to logistical difficulties, such as the interchange of squadrons between A.D.G.B. and 2nd T.A.F., it was decided that UK based fighter squadrons should revert to the use of 130 grade fuel.   Its unclear as to the degree to which this decision was carried out as of November 1944 Fighter Command was apparently still using 2,000 tons of 150 grade fuel per month.(9) During November 1944 S.H.A.E.F cleared 100/150 grade fuel for use by the Second Tactical Air Force:



It was decided that the Second Tactical Air force would change over from 100/130 grade fuel to 100/150 grade fuel from the 15th December 1944.



The shipping of fuel from Antwerp started on 2 January, 1945.(10)

100/150 grade fuel was introduced into Spitfires of 83 and 84 Groups during January 1945:


New Spitfire XIV replacements were delivered with their Griffon engines set up for +21 boost:



Some Griffon engines were cleared for +25 lbs boost before war’s end. (11)

1.  Spitfire J.L.165 with Merlin 66 at 25 Lbs. Boost Pressure, Dor/Chr/RLS.1/MNH. 8.10.43
2.  Spitfire IX JL.165 (Merlin 66) Trials at +25 lb/sq.inch boost with Rotol 4 blade propeller. A.& A.E.E. ref: CTO/AS.56/80.
3.  Approval of 25 lbs Combat Boost on Merlin 66. 10 March, 1944.  
4.  1 Squadron Operations Record Book
5.  165 Squadron Operations Record Book
6.  Interim Report – Service Trials of Merlin 66 Engines operating at + 25lbs. Boost Pressure. 16 June, 1944.    
7.  Backfire trouble resulting from use of 150 grade fuel. 12 August, 1944
8.  Use of 150 Grade Fuel, HQ ADGB, ADGB/S.37041/CTO. 18th September 1944. 
9.  Grade 100/150 Fuel, J.H Houghton Colonel A.C., Director of Supply, 23 November 1944.
10. No. 424 Aviation Fuel and Ammunition Park, 2nd T.A.F. ORB, January, 1945.
11. Directorate of Engine Development, 28th March, 1945

Misc.:
Operation of Spitfire IX LF with 25 lbs/sq.in. Boost
Speed comparison: +18 vrs +25 lbs/sq.in. boost
SL speeds, Crossbow Fighters  11 July 1944
Merlin 66 HP Chart
Merlin 66 development - engine performance projected and accomplished in 1943  (from Rolls-Royce)
Spitfire performance projected and achieved by Merlin 66 engine development in 1943  (from Rolls-Royce)
Throttle Quadrant Adjustment (25 Lb. Boost

Ian Ponsford who was credited with 7 enemy aircraft destroyed, 1 probable and three damaged whilst flying Spitfire XIV's with 130 Squadron recalled:
Quote
The Spitfire XIV was the most marvellous aeroplane at that time and I consider it to have been the best operational fighter of them all as it could out-climb virtually anything. The earlier Merlin-Spitifre may have had a slight edge when it came to turning performance but the Mark XIV was certainly better in this respect than the opposition we were faced with. The only thing it couldn't do was keep up with the FW 190D in a dive. It could be a bit tricky on take off if one opened the throttle too quickly as you just couldn't hold it staight because the torque was so great from the enormous power developed from the Griffon engine. One big advantage that we had over the Germans was that we ran our aircraft on advanced fuels which gave us more power. The 150 octane fuel that we used was strange looking stuff as it was bright green and had an awful smell - it had to be heavily leaded to cope with the extra compression of the engine.


A special thanks to Neil Sterling for all his excellent work on this subject.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2008, 10:37:21 AM »
Hi Rebel and WWhiskey:  I’m glad you got something out of those postings.  Saxman:  regarding Hogs, let me look into it when I have more time.  I know the Navy was using 115/145 octane fuel at some point.  It was speced for the F4U-4

 :rock

Be even sweeter if I can get that in my 1A.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2008, 12:21:46 PM »
I think we can assemble a list of the aircraft that flew combat ops in the ETO with 150 octane fuel. Remember, this was initially limited to the ETO. I do not know if RAF units in Italy or far east received 150 octane fuel. I don't believe USAAF units did, other than 8th AF fighter Groups. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the 9th, 12th and 15th Air Forces received 150 octane gas.

P-38J (some Groups were flying Js until August of 1944)
P-38L (only a handful in service when Groups switched to P-51s)
P-47D-25 (many in service when fuel was first issued)
P-47D-40
P-51B
P-51D
Spitfire MK.XIV
Spitfire Mk.XVI

Perhaps Mike knows if any Tempest or Typhoon units were issued the fuel...

Next issue: How about anti-G suits? They were in use by late summer 1944 in most P-47 and P-51 Groups. Allowed pilots to pull 1g + over Axis pilots before blackout. Perhaps a small (2 point) perk.


My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline moot

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2008, 12:45:46 PM »
Great stuff for the perk loadout system..
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Offline Rebel

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2008, 01:10:02 PM »
I think we can assemble a list of the aircraft that flew combat ops in the ETO with 150 octane fuel. Remember, this was initially limited to the ETO. I do not know if RAF units in Italy or far east received 150 octane fuel. I don't believe USAAF units did, other than 8th AF fighter Groups. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the 9th, 12th and 15th Air Forces received 150 octane gas.

P-38J (some Groups were flying Js until August of 1944)
P-38L (only a handful in service when Groups switched to P-51s)
P-47D-25 (many in service when fuel was first issued)
P-47D-40
P-51B
P-51D
Spitfire MK.XIV
Spitfire Mk.XVI


Interesting the D-25 is in there.  I know from video archives that  there were Razorback Thunderbolts flying with bubble tops.  That may have well been a 9th or 12th AF film, however.   Makes me wonder what models of razorbacks (if any) were getting the 150 gas, and coupled with mods of their chargers and the paddle blade props, what their performance would be like. 

The Spit XIV information Mr. Williams posted above is nothing short of astounding.   389 mph at sea level with the +25 boost. 

Quote
Perhaps Mike knows if any Tempest or Typhoon units were issued the fuel...

Next issue: How about anti-G suits? They were in use by late summer 1944 in most P-47 and P-51 Groups. Allowed pilots to pull 1g + over Axis pilots before blackout. Perhaps a small (2 point) perk.


My regards,

Widewing



Anti-G suits *would* be interesting.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2008, 03:11:23 PM »
Thank you Mr. Williams, I have some reading to do.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2008, 03:14:18 PM »
Great stuff for the perk loadout system..
My thoughts exactly.
Think of it, instead of flying the odd ball that's singled out. Instead of "ZOMG TEMPEST KILL IT!!!" pfft just another MK XVI.
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Offline moot

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2008, 05:01:12 PM »
Yeah.. now if there was something like this for the LW... :P  I think only the D9 had some special boost or fuel cleared in 45 (shows up as a separate model in Il-2), and the K4 had C3 or B4 fuel or something. Other than that I cant think of anything comparable. Maybe special field mods like no GM1 in the 152, or no gunner and gunner equipment/guns in the Me410.
It'd be very cool to have all these thanks to the perk loadout system, in any case.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2008, 05:06:12 PM »
Other than that I cant think of anything comparable.

Russian boost lvls on lend lease ac.  :aok
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Offline moot

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2008, 05:17:57 PM »
 :lol  Yeah, I mean for sse tchermanss. They're gonna be left out in the cold unless HTC throws them a bone with the more useful but rare field mods like the above, or 8x20mm in the 410, etc.  Earlier in the war it should be pretty easy to keep it even, but near the end I dont remember anywhere as many toys they could get as the allied had. 
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2008, 05:24:53 PM »
:lol  Yeah, I mean for sse tchermanss. They're gonna be left out in the cold unless HTC throws them a bone with the more useful but rare field mods like the above, or 8x20mm in the 410, etc.  Earlier in the war it should be pretty easy to keep it even, but near the end I dont remember anywhere as many toys they could get as the allied had. 
I missed that for some reason... getting older you know.
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Offline RAM

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Re: Design your own airplane
« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2008, 06:13:17 PM »
Yeah.. now if there was something like this for the LW... :P 

Yes there was. C3+MW50 for the 109K4. FW-190D9 factory charts showing a 400mph Dora@SL ;). BMW801F engine in the Fw190A8 (turning it into a 2300hp Fw190A9), Multiple weapon loadouts that were seldom used, but that saw at least advanced production testing on the field (vertical shooting AT and antibomber recoiless cannons, underwing MK-103 pods for the 190, 50mm sniper gun for the 262, X-4 wireguided missiles), hybrid planes which were not rare by spring'45 (Fw190D9 with Ta152H weapons and engine), and literally dozens of Umrust-bausatze and Rüsatze that still aren't in the game...

There is a lot that can be included in the german planeset as perk loadouts the same way as 150 octane gas can be made available on some US/British planes. Bring it on, I say! :).

 
Quote
I think only the D9 had some special boost or fuel cleared in 45 (shows up as a separate model in Il-2)

nope, it doesn't. Il-2 has two fw190D9s, the late'44 version (B4 fuel+C3 emergency injection system, Ladedruckhöhung) and the early'45 version (B4 fuel+MW50) which is the one I think we have in AH2. There were at least two improved performance versions (C3 fuel+Ladedruckhöhung and C3+MW50+Low altitude compressor, the 400mph@SL D9 ;)) that are not implemented in neither of both sims. Rightly so as the C3 Fw190D9 was rare for scarcity of the fuel, and the 400mph Dora probably was just the product of some testing at 2.02 ata in january 1945 and there's no proof about a Dora using those power settings in service. But as perk options, they are there and they can be brought into AH :).

Quote
and the K4 had C3 or B4 fuel or something

I think we got a K4 with DB605DB engine, meaning B4 fuel+MW50, 1.8 ata version. Yes, a C3+MW50, 1.98 ata version would be a cool perk loadout.

Quote
Other than that I cant think of anything comparable. Maybe special field mods like no GM1 in the 152, or no gunner and gunner equipment/guns in the Me410.
It'd be very cool to have all these thanks to the perk loadout system, in any case.

The Me410 by itself would be so cool... it's a beautiful plane. Perk loadouts for it?...don't think any of them should be perked, as they were all pretty much standard. Well the MG213 fitted version...but that doesn't belong to AH,as the gun wasn't ready by 1945 and wouldn't be good to bring it here.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 06:16:50 PM by RAM »