Author Topic: Possible fix for Buff guns  (Read 510 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« on: April 23, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
If you want the 'long range, slight advantage gunnery modeled in current FM'...then you have to spend perk points on it.

If you want the same gun range that all aircraft with .50s have, then its no cost.

Offline Skysix1

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »
now this might be a good use of perk points

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whels1

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2001, 11:03:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
If you want the 'long range, slight advantage gunnery modeled in current FM'...then you have to spend perk points on it.

If you want the same gun range that all aircraft with .50s have, then its no cost.

maybe if u select the ubber guns, u also get
alt restricting power loss, say limiting the buf to 25k max alt.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
I dont like the idea. But I am often in the position of having to fight my way through fighters to get to a target.
Good perks for bombers would be
The yb40.
The B29.
Window.
German glide bombs.

Grand slam


Offline Toad

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2001, 08:52:00 AM »
Yes, it is time to fix the buff guns. In fact, it is time to fix ALL the guns.  


"50 Caliber Weapons Report" contains an interesting 8 minute video prepared by the U.S. Marine Corps to demonstrate barrier penetration performance of various .50 caliber ammunition. The video can be viewed on your PC using RealPlayer.  A link to the the video is published below.
 http://www.house.gov/waxman/Guns/50/Video/video.html

While this video is of modern .50 BMG performance, it makes it clear that this is a very, very powerful round.

For "standard" WW2 type ball ammo, here are some figures.
 http://www.gunnery.net/warwagon/50bmg.htm

"The following data is for Military Surplus "Standard Hard Ball" .50 BMG FMJ Ammo.  This is not Match ammo and is not the most accurate ammo available, but it will do just fine against hard targets out past a mile (1600 meters).

Caliber .50 BMG [Browning Machine Gun]
Bullet Weight - 709gr FMJ-BT [Full Metal Jacket - Boat Tail]
Muzzle Velocity - 2850 - 3028 fps

Bullet Drop Chart (in Inches)

100y/92m = +28.2
200y/183m = +51.9
300y/275m = +70.5
400y/366m = +83.6
500y/458m = +92.9
600y/549m = +89.3
700y/641m = +81.4
800y/732m = +65.0
900y/824m = +18.2
1000y/915m = Zero
1100y/1007m = -49.8
1200y/1098m = -112
1300y/1190m = -191
1400y/1281m = -288
1500y/1373m = -404"

Here's a bit of information about .50 BMG as they exist today. While they perform better than their WW2 counterparts, the WW2 ammo was not all that much inferior.
 http://www.house.gov/waxman/pdf/50cal.pdf
 
I. DESCRIPTION OF THE WEAPON

Fifty caliber rifles are among the most destructive and powerful firearms sold legally in the United States. These weapons, which weigh approximately 28 pounds, can be used to hit targets over a mile away.

The original military purpose of these weapons was to destroy jeeps, tanks, personnel carriers, and other vehicles. Their tremendous force provided tactical advantages for armed forces by enabling a single person to disable multiple vehicles in a matter of seconds. The massive strength of these weapons also allowed them to be used against many objects other than
vehicles, such as bunkers, fuel stations, and communication centers.

The term “fifty caliber” refers to the size of the ammunition used in these weapons. The
diameter of these rounds is ½ inch (or “.50”), although their lengths vary from about three to six inches.

Fifty caliber rifles are “accurate” up to 2,000 yards, meaning they will strike the intended btarget within this range. These weapons are “effective” up to 7,500 yards, meaning that, although accuracy cannot be guaranteed, the round will cause its intended effect at this distance if it strikes the target.

Their effective range of 7,500 yards is equivalent to 75 football fields lined up end to end—a distance of over four miles.

These weapons can penetrate several inches of steel, concrete, or other reinforced
substances, making them particularly effective against light armor. In fact, they are so powerful that many ranges used for target shooting do not have sufficient safety features, such as reinforced
backstops, to accommodate them.

One text, The Ultimate Sniper, provides an account of a Michigan ammunition dealer test-firing his fifty caliber rifle. According to this report, the dealer “test-fired his bullets at simulated wooden frame houses and found they blew completely through six houses—not six walls, six houses!”

In addition, The Ultimate Sniper states:
How can anyone exaggerate the .50-caliber performance? Here’s a bullet that even at 1½ miles crashes into a target with more energy than Dirty Harry’s famous .44 Magnum at point-blank. But tremendous energy can hardly be surprising for a cartridge that’s five times larger than a .30-06—indeed, its 750-grain projectile is almost twice that of many elephant gun cartridges."

Clearly, our .50 BMG ammo that suddenly disappears from the calculations at about 1.0-1.3 is not realistically modeled.

Clearly, a 750 grain bullet that hits an aircraft at 1.5 MILES (that's out around range 2.5 in AH) with the muzzle energy of a .44 magnum (@ 850 ft/lb) will tear up the aluminum skin, slice hydraulic lines, crack magnesium or aluminum engine blocks, cut control cables and in general cause significant damage.

I believe this is true for all of the other aircraft ammuniton, from ALL countries, as well. There can be no doubt, for instance that the large caliber German ammunition has a similar "accurate" and "effective" ranges. I think we would find a similar situation with respect to the cannon rounds.

So, I'm sure ALL true "realism" fans will support the effort to convince HTC to go ahead and realistically model the realistic terminal performance of all the ammunition.

The artificial termination of bullet tracking by the program at or around 1.0 must be fixed!

Realism fans UNITE!

Thank you for your support!
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Offline MANDOBLE

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2001, 10:44:00 AM »
 
Quote
"Realism fans UNITE!
I agree with you Toad, and add the tremendous dispersion, vibrations, gun melting and brake effect derived of having the guns (up to 8) placed in the wings (no wing roots precisely).

And about "50 Caliber Weapons Report", is it related to P51/47/38 MGs?
Suppose a "20mm Caliber Weapons Report" related to the M61 and having Spit pilots wanting those results because their guns are also 20mm.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »
Absolutely Mandoble!!

As many people have pointed out dispersion actually INCREASES your chances of landing a hit. Both Pyro and HT have pointed this out.  

Let those barrels melt for those who hold down the trigger!

As for "break effect" I assume you mean a loss of airspeed for sustained fire? I think Funked has shown that this is already present.

And as you suggest, the present .50 BMG M2 Ball and tracer data is INDEED very close to WW2 performance of those same rounds. Bullets, velocity, energy and trajectory are not much different at all. Great to have such data available isn't it?

I'm not sure how current M61 20mm rounds compare to WW2 Hispano. You might ask Mr. Williams.

Welcome aboard the Realism Bandwagon!

Glad to have you supporting realistic bullet/shell terminal performance out past 2.0 for all countries in AH!

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 04-26-2001).]
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
<Punt!>

Wow! Where are the legions or true realism fans?

I thought EVERYONE was for max realism. If we're going to get this done you lads are going to have to speak up so HTC can hear ya!

Line up, Sign up and Re-Enlist today in the fight for more REALISM!
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Offline Jekyll

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2001, 06:08:00 AM »
Absolutely with you on this one Toad.  And while we're at it, drop all range info from icons so you will have to judge deflection just the way they did back in WW2.

After all, you want TRUE realism, right?

Oh, and make sure that things like Magnus Effect are modelled for guns while you're at it  

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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2001, 09:08:00 AM »
I agree with this one

Offline Tac

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2001, 09:23:00 AM »
Yep, drop the laser range finders and you can make them bullets hit at whatever range they were supposed to hit and do damage in RL.

Add dispersion, gun jams/meltdowns, sun glare (aaah! the sun! the sun!) and it may be good.

Until the laserangefinders are gone, it would be ridiculous to have such ballistics. Heck, I could spray my 2000 rnds of .50 of my P-38 at stuff over d2.7 and smile all the way      

Also to be of note, LW pilots used their CANNONS to fire OUTSIDE bomber gun ranges. So yeeeha buff pilots, if this is implemented you are MEAT. Bhuahahahahah

Offline Lucchini

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2001, 10:50:00 AM »
Agreed Toad!

More realistic gunnery'd be welcome by me

(by me: is this correct english???   )

Ciao

Lucchini

Offline Toad

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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2001, 10:57:00 AM »
All right! Now we're getting somewhere.

Glad you agree that all the guns need to shoot much farther, probably twice as far as they do now.

We're going to have to get a much more sophisticated damage map as well.

Imagine this situation:

You're 2.5 (about 1 1/2 miles)away from a Jug pilot who is barreling in on your wingtip with a 90 aspect. He's a good shot, he leads you and snaps off a 2 second burst from 8 .50's. At 80 rounds/sec from each gun, 1280 slugs are headed your way, dispersing of course. Dispersion, as we all know actually increases the probability of a hit. When they get there, each one has about 850 ft/lbs of energy. If just one hits the side of the canopy it will punch right through. If your head is in line with that, the inside of your flying helmet will look like a pot of strawberry jam. Instant pilot kill. We want realism, so no complaints, right? No more bullets disappearing into another astral plane at 1.0! The HTC computer will have to work a little harder, but ...REALISM!

As for Icons, they HAVE to go. Of course, this totally phony compressed field of view has to go as well and at the same time.

As Vermillion pointed out in another thread:

"Actually the "zoom" feature is not an actual zoom, like binoculars or anything. What it does is change your field of vision.

Flight sims like AH, use a 90 degree field of vision (to simulate your normal vision plus peripheral) and squeeze that down to what you see on your monitor.

What this causes is that objects look like they are smaller at a given distance, than they are in real life.

For example if your at 400 yards, it looks like your at a much farther distance because the planeshapes are smaller.

What the "zoom" function does is to change your field of vision down to 45 degrees, which is approximately what your normal non-peripheral vision is.

So you can't see as much of the area, but objects look correct in regards to size at distance. In other words, when you are in "zoom" mode, and at 200 yards, thats how big it would look in real life from that distance."

So the zoom is only giving you what it would really look like thru the gunsight in real life."

So, we have to end this totally unrealistic compressed field of view. It allows you to see far more of a situation in a glance than a realistic pair of eyeballs could. It gives you totally bogus SA abilities.

Once we cut down the FOV to normal, everything will appear much larger, of course. We'll have to have more views and a way to quickly scroll through them too, since with each "view" you'll only cover about 1/2 the sky you are seeing now. Perhaps some sort of trackball to roll the eyes around, possibly slowing as G's build over 4 or so.

We need more detail to. In RL (TM) on an AH clear day you can tell if the gear is up or down on a multi-engine bomber size aircraft at 2 miles, about say, 3.5 or so in AH. Now you can't actually see the gear like the tires and brake lines, but you can easily see a shape change in the silhouette from the clean to dirty configuration.

We need more REALISTIC DETAIL!

Thanks again for joining the Realism Bandwagon!

 

Jekyll, I doubt Pyro needs to worry about Magnus Effect. First of all, current ballistic programs are highly accurate in predicting real-life results. Secondly, smooth objects tend to exhibit reverse Magnus Effect do they not? This would sort of be counter to what you seek, if I understand your innuendo correctly. There's no cricket ball seams on a bullet.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Offline Maverick

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2001, 02:09:00 PM »
I have seen this "meltdown" term kicked around for a few times in the bbs. Could someone please advise just how many rounds are needed to fire to "melt" the gun??? Also advise how long a period of fire is required in relation to the ammo loads on AH game planes. Please advise what the minimum cooling time between bursts is to get the barrel cooled in a 150 to 350 MPH air stream that can range from +70 degrees to -30 degrees. I'd like to know as I have never seen a gun "melt" in real life after spending quite a bit of time on a machine gun range with 30 and 50 cal MG's.

Please tell me, does ANYONE in this game really hose ALL their ammo out in one burst????? I never have and haven't seen anyone else do it yet. How many kills do you get that way???

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Offline Tac

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Possible fix for Buff guns
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2001, 08:43:00 PM »
"For example if your at 400 yards, it looks like your at a much farther distance because the planeshapes are smaller"

Easy to fix that: Increase the size of planes 3d models        

BTW, I have wasted ALL the ammo on a P-38 in one long burst. Fricken Lancaster still kept going on. Had to end up ramming the mugger.