Author Topic: Winning the Map  (Read 1531 times)

Offline zes

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2008, 02:12:28 PM »
I'd like to see a switch away from % of bases taken to another method.  Leave the base taking as is, but switch the 'war win' criteria to capturing sectors based on number of kills within that sector for a given time period (like every hour or 1/2 hour).  That way the war can only be won by fighting and getting kills.  The team with the most kills within a sector in a given time period wins the sector.  This continues until one team owns x percentage of sectors.  The furballers would be the primary agents of winning the war.  The base takers and ground pounders would still be important in that it would be next to impossible to hold sectors that contain enemy bases.  There would certainly need to be a few additional criteria to avoid gamey cheats like spies committing suicide in various uncontested sectors (like there must be an enemy within range for a death to count toward sector capture).  I've been thinking about this for a while and can't really find a flaw that couldn't be remedied with some fairly simple criteria.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2008, 03:00:23 PM »
I'd like to see a switch away from % of bases taken to another method.  Leave the base taking as is, but switch the 'war win' criteria to capturing sectors based on number of kills within that sector for a given time period (like every hour or 1/2 hour).  That way the war can only be won by fighting and getting kills.  The team with the most kills within a sector in a given time period wins the sector. 

I see what you're trying to accomplish with that (you want to promote the fight)... but it also opens a can of worms.

The "n00bs" will be yelled at to stay out of a given sector that's close to get "captured" for fear they are just providing kills for the enemy.
A new player upping and dying a dozen times in a row will get nasty PMs from own side.

And even worse, what's about shade killing then? Dedicated "warmongers" will either fly openly or in shades to provide easy kills to his team just to win this sector.

Or what about the huge landgrab squads that do vulch the fields? Players now upping in defense may actually hurt their own side, because they get much more killed than they do kill...

Or how about defending a sector by just not flying & fighting there - after all, no defenders = no kills for the attacker...


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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2008, 03:32:30 PM »

I see what you're trying to accomplish with that (you want to promote the fight)... but it also opens a can of worms.

The "n00bs" will be yelled at to stay out of a given sector that's close to get "captured" for fear they are just providing kills for the enemy.
A new player upping and dying a dozen times in a row will get nasty PMs from own side.

And even worse, what's about shade killing then? Dedicated "warmongers" will either fly openly or in shades to provide easy kills to his team just to win this sector.

Or what about the huge landgrab squads that do vulch the fields? Players now upping in defense may actually hurt their own side, because they get much more killed than they do kill...

Or how about defending a sector by just not flying & fighting there - after all, no defenders = no kills for the attacker...





I've been thinking about this for a while and can't really find a flaw that couldn't be remedied with some fairly simple criteria.

There you go.  Let's hear the "simple" criteria to fix all of that.
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Offline DREDger

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2008, 06:43:52 PM »
I think on these super large maps the percentage should be dropped from 40% down to maybe 305 or 25%.

On the small TT map, maybe keep it at 40%.

The large maps are stalemate maps at this percentage.

Offline jedi25

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2008, 06:49:43 PM »
Dredger has made a valid point, the maps are too huge and war becomes stale mate to win = trench warefare.

Raptor, I love your suggestion, capture the HQ to win the war would put some life in this game.

Guys just image the the fun we would in fighting our way to an HQ.

Hitech, lets make this happen..

Offline dkff49

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2008, 06:52:30 PM »
I think it would be better to automatically reset the map after it has been up for 7 days than to change to war win system.

In my opinion the war win system is good the way it is now. It allows there to be enough of an incentive to entice those that care about such things but not so much as to make them too obnoxious to ruin the fun for those who don't care about it.


again this is my very humble opinion.
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Offline zes

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2008, 10:04:42 PM »


There you go.  Let's hear the "simple" criteria to fix all of that.


Thanks for the feedback, Lusche and BaldEagl.  I’ll respond once here and start a different thread if another.  Also, I should qualify ‘simple’.  This overall idea would not be simple for HTC to implement, I'm fairly certain.  That as a given, I intend ‘simple’ to mean modifications to it.

The "n00bs" will be yelled at to stay out of a given sector that's close to get "captured" for fear they are just providing kills for the enemy.
A new player upping and dying a dozen times in a row will get nasty PMs from own side.


I don’t expect any plan could be engineered to extinguish players ‘harshing’ on each other no matter how the war is arranged.
 
Some options–
No one would have access to a running total of kills until the sector time limit was up where you could see the stats of the previous sectors capture/kill stats.  While this wouldn’t change many players attitude toward noobs contributions, it would cast the ‘harshing’ as particalarly unwarranted.  It would be obvious when one team outnumbers the other within a sector and might foster the attitudes you mention.  To that HTC could consider ‘any player demanding another not fly where and when they wish’ to be a reportable offense.
 
Or consider that capturing a sector really has little bearing on changing the activity going on in that sector.  Unlike capturing a base where the fight is essentially over for now, a sector might just change color every hour.  It may seep in that ownership of a sector toward ‘winning the war’ is only useful if it is about then advancing.  The defending team ultimately has to deal with that fact and simply fight or be overrun.  Grounding noobs isn’t really going to save a sector that is being overrun with enduring superior numbers.

Or possibly, break the sector grid into smaller chunks, maybe keypads, putting less emphasis on each land capture.  This might alleviate some of the anxiety that an ‘all is lost if we lose this sector’ syndrome might foster.

Or arrange the ‘capture’ sectors in a pinwheel or target shape rather than the current grid of squares.  Here the sectors for capture would be narrow then widening as they extend from the center of the map outward like a darts target making it difficult for the ‘generals’ to know the qualifications and effect of everyone in the sector.

And even worse, what's about shade killing then? Dedicated "warmongers" will either fly openly or in shades to provide easy kills to his team just to win this sector.

True enough, and the team with the best ‘warmongers’ will probably prevail.  But unless the majority of players are doing this I would expect it too difficult to hold enough sectors, in enough time, to actually win a LW large map (especially the pinwheel arrangement).  Those types of players would just end up being the scourge they are now. IMO

 
Or what about the huge landgrab squads that do vulch the fields? Players now upping in defense may actually hurt their own side, because they get much more killed than they do kill...

Wheels down kills below 10 ft. count on personal stats but not toward sector capture or something like that.


Or how about defending a sector by just not flying & fighting there - after all, no defenders = no kills for the attacker...

An undefended base takers paradise with no real annoyance to the ‘takee’, what’s the problem?

But seriously, the pinwheel/target arrangement would eliminate the likelihood of that becoming a problem.  Each sector would occupy a ‘swath’ across the entire map concentrating the total number of sectors at the very center where you would find TT/FT.  It might be necessary to create a center zone where the sectors converge and disqualify sector capture within it, however.

Or, some iteration of…. taking all enemy bases within a sector will win that sector if one full time-frame completes with no kills in it.  The sector can, of course, just be taken back next frame, bases or no.

Or using the keypad model… you could also capture keypad sectors by surrounding them on all adjacent sides, making ‘not defending’ not foolproof.

Regardless of sector style, base capture would eventually still have a decisive effect in the event a team was ‘not defending’.  They would eventually have to confront the enemy or stalemate, it would be up to the attacker. 

Offline LYNX

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2008, 10:28:40 PM »
For HTC the game has worked successfully as is.  What I'm about to twitter on about will sound like an old timer wishing for something new.  OK, partly true :D

I would like to see some of the strat system utilised for the benefit of all.  In keeping with the thread lower the win % to 20 - 20 or 1 complete Zone per side BUT in order to take bases the Zone city has to be under 50%.  <1 complete zone of each side for large terrains.  20% of each for smaller.>

The terrain starts off with all bases marked with red square as uncapturable and remains so untill a zone City is taken out below 50%.  Then all fields in that zone become capturable.  Once the city regains above 50% the uncapturable red squared icons pop back up.  In order to keep capturing fields the city will have to be hit again.   

Defenders can recapture their fields at any time so long as they hold the Zone base.   If they lose the zone base then the roll is reversed.  Zone defenders will then have to bomb their old city below 50% once it regains, in order to recapture their old territory.

The theory behind my fendish plot to make HTC scratch his head about how it could be coded is simply to diversify the capture system.  Making the Cities valued targets will result in various mission types to secure the 50% objective.  I would envisage high alt bomber missions with or without escorts.  Sneaky NOE runs.  Mass Gv raids.  Cv action.   A plethora of defensive schemes would be born leading to very interesting fights.

Needless to say Zone bases would become even more contested and valued. Along with any base that's next to or spawns to the City :aok
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 10:32:09 PM by LYNX »

Offline Lusche

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2008, 10:28:45 PM »

I don’t expect any plan could be engineered to extinguish players ‘harshing’ on each other no matter how the war is arranged.
 


I agree. But not extinguishing is not quite the same as fueling the fire.

Right now, any player that doesn't chose to play the "war" game or simply isn't skilled enough or doesn't know better doesn't hurt the ones on his country that do (perhaps with only real exception of giving CV positions away by taking off).

If you make every players action count in regard to "the war", there will be trouble.
If someone is now trying to see how a B-25H holds it's own in a furball, that's his problem (or fun). But once his numerous deaths start to affect his team, there will be bad blood on countrychannel. And yes, even more than it's nowadays, because finally the strat guys woudl be right when yelling about someone "waisting resources".

One thing that makes this game and the MA's successful is it's sandbox gameplay. Within some (minor) limits, you can play any style you want in the MA. Winning the war, madly furballing in everlasting merry-go-rounds, hunting for that holy #1 rank position... all in one arena. And most amazingly, usually it works. You choose your game.
With your proposal, everybody takes part in the war game, regardless if he wants to. The rift between "furballers" and "strat guys" would get wider and much nastier.
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Offline zes

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2008, 11:17:37 PM »

I agree. But not extinguishing is not quite the same as fueling the fire.

Right now, any player that doesn't chose to play the "war" game or simply isn't skilled enough ...

One thing that makes this game and the MA's successful is it's sandbox gameplay. Within some (minor) limits, you can play any style you want in the MA. Winning the war, madly furballing in everlasting merry-go-rounds, hunting for that holy #1 rank position... all in one arena. And most amazingly, usually it works. You choose your game.
With your proposal, everybody takes part in the war game, regardless if he wants to. The rift between "furballers" and "strat guys" would get wider and much nastier.



Agreed, it would certainly add 'stakes' for some.

I don't really think it would fundamentally change the culture though.  The majority of players know the importance of new players and the strat guys have already given up on the individuals that furball in Mitchells.  It would still be a sandbox with a same-ish rifts, different angles.

Granted if the option to have a quantifiable effect(or not) is a particular issue for people, than this doesn't work.  I don't think it a stretch or daunting to find this arrangement in a combat sim/game though.

Just tossing an idea not a manifesto.

Offline Delirium

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2008, 12:53:26 AM »
porking fuel at a base, lowered the max fuel there to 25%.. of course the furballers FLIPPED OUT

Everyone flipped out because a SINGLE enemy aircraft could make a field completely useless within 2-3 passes. This was also back when a single guy could easily de-ack a field.


BOMB CRATERS.. used to damage landing gear if you drove through them at speed, furballers got that removed as well.. 

Again, a single aircraft could shut down a field. Drop a bomb at each end of the runway and one at the hanger and the field is dead.

Anyone else see a pattern here? Obviously, some want AH porking to be as easy as possible.


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Offline gpwurzel

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2008, 04:25:02 AM »
I like Lynx's idea tho - doing it by zones, with fields only capturable after the zone city is below 50% could well provide something for everyone. The bomber guys go get the city, fields are then attacked with a view to capture, and the furballers get to engage the defenders. To make it really interesting, in the long run, when/if terrain files are updated, we could use one of the really large cities from CT for the big fields zone, etc etc

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Offline Getback

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2008, 06:13:11 AM »
If you lower the percentages of field takes then every single night when no one is on the map will be reset. You will have to decide if that is good or bad.

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2008, 07:43:43 AM »
I dont see a problem with what we've got - maps do get reset, although less often on the larger maps as you would expect. just because hardly anyone bothers to use the strat system doesnt mean it doesnt work.

like most complaints about the system, the problem is generally with the players' ability and tactics, not the system itself.

eg. 15 heavy fighters roll in to attack a base. you've got several options:
1. Sit in the tower moaning about hoarding and vulching
2. Sit on the field in a wirble/field gun hoping for a couple of vulcher kills before the base is taken
3. Keep upping from that field and get repeatedly vulched
4. Up a 15-strong fighter sweep from the next base over and kill the attackers.

you will pretty much only see a combination of 1-3, hardly ever 4. is this a problem with the map/eny/arena cap/hoarding red guys? plainly not.
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Offline LYNX

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Re: Winning the Map
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2008, 07:52:45 AM »
If you lower the percentages of field takes then every single night when no one is on the map will be reset. You will have to decide if that is good or bad.

Perhaps another good reason to incorporate the Zone city into the capture system.  I know the night shift is active in gv'ing bases.  Maybe with so few players on the city would be as important as it would be in peak times.   

When the red square uncapturable icons are up nothing stops folk from flattening towns, porking fields or recapturing their zones fields.  It's just that the troops won't work untill the city is below 50% if they are attaking in enemy zones.