MWA as bad as any other arena now:(

[lowZX14]

This is something I don't understand.  I know a lot of people complain about picking or ganging, and they're always the ones on the losing end.  But, isn't the whole point of having squadmates and friends to help out and work together?  I do understand that 4 on 1 or sometimes 3 on 1 is a little overkill, but having a buddy jump in if you realize that you're going to get shot down is what wingman tactics and having friends is all about.  I guess what I'm saying is that if you want 1 vs 1 every time you go up to fight, grab someone you want to do that with and go to the DA.  Or, you could let that one person know and hope that he informs his friends to stay away.  Now if you're having a good 1 vs 1 fight going on, and someone comes screaming in out of the blue, it can get a little aggravating, but at least if I'm the one that happens upon that fight, I'll at least ask whoever it is that is flying for the same little chess piece as me if they want me to jump in before I do. 

Just my opinion, take it how you want to.

[CAP1]

Let try and clarify my post from last night a bit....

While all of us have our moments and none are immune to throwing rocks at our proverbial glass house my comments are based on flying the MWA a lot over the last few months. The specific incident that triggered the post is basically identical to 100 or more that went before it. I logged in as rook (was lowest number last time) and as is usual there was no balanced rook fight. They were all lumped together ganging one field while the opposing sides each in turn ganged a different rook base. So i'm either 10 on zip or 1 on the dar bar. I hate flying knight in the MWA so I went bish and found a base (A19) with a single dar bar. I upped an SBD and went looking for a fight. Thr Darbar grew and I finally found a higher 110, p-38 and p-51. The pony dropped on in and the 110 and 38 stayed up. The pony driver was actually pretty decent, he got a couple of licks in that he probably shouldnt have (on my 2nd or 3rd day of trackIR use so I lose guys to often still) but was a fun fight that devolved to a stall fight on the deck with me forcing him to extend and regroup 4-5 times. Now on the last after staying out the entire time the 38 (oldman22) drops in and picks me. From my perspective the pony called the others off and then asked him in once he saw he was gonna get killed if he continued the 1 on 1.my last night ingame...about a week ago, i had a good fight..me in 38g vs spit5. there was him, a hurri, and a 109. we were all around 12k. i inned the spit, and as the hurri got closer, lazydog came on 200, saying "i'm out cap", and just circled the fight. i think one of them called off the 109 too(i think that was chief250?). they both simply circled and watched. then one of my squaddies comes on vox" HOLY CRAP CAP!! how are you fighting them all"!? u thnk that came from the fact that 10i was in a 38, and 2) most that know me, know i suck at multi-con engagements. anyway, he said he was OTW to help. i said to stay out...from the spit anyway. he did. he went in on the hurri, and someone else went in on the 109. it was a fun fight. then nkl5 chased me in his lanc o deth.  

Anyone who's ever flown with me knows that I always call any squaddies (or friendlies) off of a true 1 on 1....especially if i'm losing so that type of behavior is repugnant to me. I upped an SBD again to give them another crack and this time the 3 just ganged me again with no pretense. So I left them to them selfs. i seriously enjoyed that one single fight i had with ya...my 38 vs ur sbd...and hope to see ya in there..if i get in again, for more.

The truth is that there are a lot of "old school" guys who will help anyone who asks, the SAPP guys are not only great sticks but great people as well. As for me I help anyone who asks and post various stuff in the TA portion of the BBS from time to time. I'm way beyond caring about "score" and IMO this actually goes beyond this increasingly stupid game. This is an indicator of the constant erosion of character in our society at large IMO...I'm finding more and more I simply don't like the majority of people who play this game any more.

<<S>>

[lowZX14]

Was that directed at me CAP?

Let me clarify (a commonly overused term here) a little. 

Calling people off if you and someone else are having a good fight is great.  There's nothing wrong with that.  The thing I have a problem with, is everyone that whines about being picked or ganged.  How do you know that your opponent was seeing that he was losing the upper hand and called in for a little help?  What's wrong with asking for help if you're in a losing fight?  If you and your opponent are all fine and dandy with fighting just each other and don't want anyone to interfere, both of you let it be known.  But don't get mad if your opponents buddy jumps in to help his friend out.  That was the point I was trying to make is that I ask before I jump into 2 people in a 1 on 1 to see if they want my help, or I'll circle a little higher of find someone else to tussle with.  There's nothing wrong with 1 vs 1 at all, and if people want to do it in any of the arenas it's fine, just don't complain when someone else jumps in.  If you strictly want 1 vs 1 and don't want your opponents friends jumping in to help if they need it, go to the DA, that's what I was saying.  I have had it done to me plenty of times fighting someone and here comes one of their buddies, but do I get mad, no because that's what teamwork is.  Is it disappointing if you two have been having a good fight and it's ruined by someone else, yeah, but oh well, just shoot the guy you were fighting with a message, find some remote place to have a little 1 on 1 or go to the DA it's not that hard.

[humble]

Thats a fair question and i'll try and give you an answer.

We can distinguish between a "squad op", a "mission", a furball and a true 1 on 1 or 1 on 2. There are plenty of times that "ganging" is appropriate in the context of the game. Circumstances rarely give you a truly equal fight....IMO if a winging pair initiate winging tactics thats fine. If one engages solo and then the wingie engages later I find that to be unsportsmanlike. I'll give a specific example to illustrate....

3-4 tours ago I upped a pony (D) to try and catch up with a few squaddies running a sweep (4-5). I rarely ever catch up since I normally find some fun otw. While tooling toward them I caught 3 or 4 planes 1 on 1 and in the end they actually picked me up RTB. As we returned I noticed a darbar and vectored off looking for another pelt. Batfink trailed after me in case we got some real play. I found a pony climbing out, and a great fight ensued. I knew in 30 seconds I was probably over matched a bit (I'm not a great pony driver) if the fight went to even. As i'm fighting i'm speculating with Bat who it might be...another 15-20 seconds and I've identified "it" as most likely being SkatSr. The fight played out another 2 min or so with skat forcing me to an all in position, I finally reached what I felt was my best case and took him vertical off of his reverse and just had enough, he got guns on enough to pop an aileron and I caught him on the stall. Bat circled the entire time and would have never bounced the pony, further if Skat had won (and he probably should have) Bat would have given him the choice of engaging or RTBing. I take no issue that some of us are flying WW1/early WW2 "knights of the sky" rules and some of us aren't...at its heart this used to be a flight sim centered on individual and/or small unit air combat.

[CAP1]

Was that directed at me CAP?

Let me clarify (a commonly overused term here) a little. 

Calling people off if you and someone else are having a good fight is great.  There's nothing wrong with that.  The thing I have a problem with, is everyone that whines about being picked or ganged.  How do you know that your opponent was seeing that he was losing the upper hand and called in for a little help?  What's wrong with asking for help if you're in a losing fight?  If you and your opponent are all fine and dandy with fighting just each other and don't want anyone to interfere, both of you let it be known.  But don't get mad if your opponents buddy jumps in to help his friend out.  That was the point I was trying to make is that I ask before I jump into 2 people in a 1 on 1 to see if they want my help, or I'll circle a little higher of find someone else to tussle with.  There's nothing wrong with 1 vs 1 at all, and if people want to do it in any of the arenas it's fine, just don't complain when someone else jumps in.  If you strictly want 1 vs 1 and don't want your opponents friends jumping in to help if they need it, go to the DA, that's what I was saying.  I have had it done to me plenty of times fighting someone and here comes one of their buddies, but do I get mad, no because that's what teamwork is.  Is it disappointing if you two have been having a good fight and it's ruined by someone else, yeah, but oh well, just shoot the guy you were fighting with a message, find some remote place to have a little 1 on 1 or go to the DA it's not that hard.

nope......wasn't aimed at you dude.....you know me better than that!!

 i was simply speaking of a good fight i had that night, and that the 2 other cons there decided to stay out.......and that i asked my squaddies to stay off the spit i was engaged with, which they did. and for the record, that same spit driver had kilt me previously, and i thought he was gonna again...i just got lucky though......he bellflopped into the trees.   shortl, thereafter, so did i as nkl was chasing me.  

[bongaroo]

I'm finding more and more I simply don't like the majority of people who play this game any more.

I think this hits the nail squarely on the head.

Someone just last night fit the bill at first.  Low typhy kept coming back to try and deack a field to setup a vulch and maybe a capture.  I easily dispatched him.  5 or so minutes later it happens again.  Now the fellow is sending me mean PMs.  My first instinct is to talk the smack right back.  I'm fairly certain that I'm going to be able to beat him in most any matchup so instead I simply offer a fight in the DA.  He accepted.

We only had time for one fight and it was in spixtweens.  I hadn't flown one in a good while, and spun the heck out of it at the top of my first loop after the merge.  I'm fighting to recover and see a red tag above his spixtween spin around my screen a few times.  I recover and immediately realize he's gaining my six.  Chop throttle, full rudder into some tight barrell rolls.  I work him out in front and as I gain his six I see he's turning into the canyon wall.  He augered giving me the win.

We talked a bit and Floatsup told me he'd been having a rough time IRL.  I told him to just take it a little easier on the language in game and I feel like I could fly with him again if he asked.

I see a lot of problems in this game stemming from frustration, both in game and in the real world thats spilling in.

It took a few minutes but I made another friend.  At first I thought he would end up far from that.  It's tough to have patience like that but I've found it worth it.

PFDave, you should really come fly some 38's with everyone on vox 138.  Usually to be found on the low numbers country heading for a big red dar bar that often has a much smaller green dar bar.  I was fortunate to have some great fights with CorkyJr a long while ago.  I mentioned that 38s had always frustrated me as a fighter and so began my long journey of dropping p38 parts all over the arenas.  I agree that some in SAPP may have a big head pumped up from too much ego (actually I'm only looking at ackack ) but I have yet to find another group dedicated to a single plane type that is as usefull and fun as these guys.

On topic, I enjoy moving into the MWA as I find the planeset is much more balanced.  I hate seeing that much if not the majority of the participants are more interested in cartoon real estate as opposed to a good fight.  I have a similar problem when the AvA has setups that encourage more basegrabbing than fighting too.

[lowZX14]

I can somewhat see your point Snaphook.  On the other hand though, that red bad guy most likely saw the 2 of you and still decided to engage you.  He should know coming into that situation that there is a chance that the second con will jump in to engage as well.  I am all for a fair fight, well as much as possible, but I'm also all for working together.  If there is a chance that I might be jumped by 2 or 3, I'll either find a way out, or try to find a way to live, dying being the case most of the time.  I was just saying that you can't expect squaddies or another friendly to stay out of the fight unless you tell them so beforehand.  Myself, I like flying into a bunch of bad guys, not because I don't want to see how many I can kill because that will probably be zero, I like to do it to see how long I can live.  Fighting off 2 or 3 or however many only makes my SA and ACM skills that much better, which means I need to find more of those fights.  But I do agree that the honorable thing to do is let the 2 people fighting 1 vs 1 duke it out, but you and I both know that probably 8 times out of 10, you're not going to find that.  People can say what they want, but you will most likely see the other guy jumping in at some point if not right from the beginning.

[Shuffler]

Really?  I don't think so.  From my perspective the whole SAPP thing is more a close knit club thing that excludes more then includes.  For god's sake, just take a close look at how SAPP folks participate in the in game and BBS community.  

If you can't see the elitist over tones, I don't know what I can say...

Honestly, you are one of the most positive posters in the BBS...  I actually miss the "in character" Corky Jr stories...

I guess my question is, how does your group choose players to train?  How many have you trained in the past 6 months?  Are you really trying to propagate a community interested in the mechanics of air combat?

What about other squads?

How many squads are really interested in teaching ACM?  

Rolling Thunder (my squad) has recently started using Titanic Tuesdays as training days, covering various topics, how many over squads are doing this?

Guess I am just a bit sick of reading how crappy the game play is these days, when there are so very few people interested in really improving it....

Not sure if you know, but S.A.P.P. is not a Squad. We are a group of folks dedicated to the P-38. Our Forum is chocked full of good historical information, links and film for those who want to learn the 38. The only folks not in SAPP are the ones who do not fly the 38 diligently. We have several new folks in there now. They are folks who have tagged along and are noted as flying the 38 alot. SAPP is not an Elitist group just a rag tag bunch who love the 38.

[BaldEagl]

On the whole thing about training I think the vets do what they can.  Whether it's to wing with someone or offer advice on the BBs.  Some are better at it than others.  I tend to limit my help to the Help and Training forum because when I have time to play then I want to play, not be a trainer plus I'm not sure I'm all that good a teacher.

That said, one night I killed a guy who was obviously a n00b a couple of times.  I can't remember how it ended up happening but we started a PM conversation.  I asked him to come back to the same area and asked if I could critique his flying.  He agreed.  There were a lot of little things he was doing wrong that really hurt him.  I hope I helped him out.  The same thing happened with some guy who was taunting me to go to the DA.  So, the point of all this is, if you get owned by someone maybe you should just ask them if they would fight you again and critique your flying.  I'd bet 90% would happily oblige, and why not?  It's a big compliment to them and another easy kill if they decide to take it.

[ink]

After I took my break I told myself I would find a little corner of AH to enjoy and keep my mouth shut.

Well, all I found was an arena increasingly loaded with sticks that have one eye on the gunsight and the other on the score card. The newest crop of vets are those that can land multiple kills over and over again without regard of how they are obtained. Gone are the vets that would happily dive into a mess of enemy planes and still <salute> those that ganged them to death.

I'm definitely not as gracious as the latter type, but I'm closer to that than a score monkey.

Del, I dont consider myself a "vet", I have only  been here since tour 52?

but in any case I "happily dive down into a mess of red, and I always <S> the one that killz me,  but what I have found is they most dont <S> back or they say you where "stick stirring" thats how you stayed alive, or whatever excuse they can come up with that makes themselves feel better for not being able to kill you so fast.
Now I am not saying that none ever <S> because some do in that for instance but most dont.
   and then on the other hand, I dont understand this ether, I have been jumped on by the hourd and killed some of them, I <S> them, and they only rarly <S> back, maybe its just me, I guess I am one of the players that is disliked by most every one, 

 Yet I never harass anyone, talk crap to anyone, whine, complain, or squeak about any ones flying "style".

Its cool though I have to admit I truly enjoy it when, I am called a cheater, or "stick stirrer" or when I get PVed by the guy I just killed, about how much I suk. or the number of exscuses I have heard as to why they died to my Hurri.
 although I will say there are a few great guys in the MAs, that show respect every time! win or lose. but they are rare.

[CAP1]

What a joke, when the MWA reaches a point that its tardlets in bunches its time to evaluate where the game is going. My 90 day clock is on, fas as I can see we're reaching the point that its devolved to a total waste of time.

hey dude.........are you on on a regular basis, or is it like me......and ya get on when you manage to fiond time?

i'm not thinking i'm gonna make it tonight, or sat, but i should be able to be on for a bit sunday..i hope.......i'd love to find more good fights with ya.......i've still watched that film a couple times, and it made it easy to see my mistakes. nowww...if only i can do it differently......

[humble]

I'm up mostly Fri-sun but pop in from time to time during the week. Just PM me anytime you catch me on (.f snaphook). I'd also look for Batfink (batfinkv) or lengro. Great guys, better sticks then I am and good at teaching as well. We've been "rumbling" in the TA more then flying in the arena's recently...

[lowZX14]

I also think that I'm going to start spending some time in the TA to find some of those guys to help me out.  Some afternoons I get an hour or so but there's not many people there then.

[CAP1]

I also think that I'm going to start spending some time in the TA to find some of those guys to help me out.  Some afternoons I get an hour or so but there's not many people there then.

I'VE been wondering if it would be a bad idea to bring in a stick for the shop puter, as i did install the game. figure i could pssibly get a bit of time in on lunchbreak.

[storch]

What a joke, when the MWA reaches a point that its tardlets in bunches its time to evaluate where the game is going. My 90 day clock is on, fas as I can see we're reaching the point that its devolved to a total waste of time.

this is the reason why I got myself banned from the game.  there is a squad in there that is consistently ruining the game with their mindless toolshedding.  once they moved over to the AvA where I had gone to get away from them and they followed I picked the whineyest of them and gave him both barrels as well expressing my disdane for HTC.  I no longer have an account and I can't return.  seeing as how I was so addicted to this crack cocaine like game it was the only way I wouldn't pay.

I'm glad to be gone.