Which Way Do I Turn?

[dtango]

EXAMPLE 2
On the 412th training forum I show a sequence where I make bad choices with regard to direction of turn demonstrating again the importance of those choices but it doesn’t illustrate the impact of good choices. 

In the interest of keeping the topic moving I’ll skip to an example where the choice of direction of turn dictates the fight.


Here's the full AH film for the following example:
http://brauncomustangs.org/films/film103_p38_geaux.ahf


Frame 1


At the opening of the fight I spot a P-38J trying to close on myself and SkatSr. Given the ample separation between the P-38 and me, I reverse into him using an immelman. Over the top of the immel, I'm doing about 185mph TAS which is not a very good maneuver speed for a Mustang fighting an enemy with much higher E. And in this case I notice that the P-38 is closing terribly fast (film shows around 380mph).

In Frame 1 we merge with me diving slightly while the P-38 is climbing slightly into me. At the merge, I have a choice of choosing to turn or not. As we pass before initiating any other kind of maneuver I watch which way the P-38J goes and notice that he decides to turn back into me by going to his right. At this point because he is so much faster than me, going straight is not an option so I must turn to avoid giving him position and angles advantage. Which way should I go?

Frame 2


I could have chosen to either chosen a nose-to-nose turn back into him or a nose-to-tail turn away from his turn. As you can see in Frame 2 I choose a nose-to-tail turn. This is a very critical decision at this juncture and you will see how it plays itself out.

I didn't make the decision to go nose-to-tail at random. It was calculated.

• I'm low on energy and need time and separation to build up energy in order to be effective in maneuver.
• I know that he's faster than me so in going nose-to-tail I'm trying to bleed off his E by making him turn hard and through many more angles to get pointed back at me.
• Since it's hard to judge the turn capability of the bogey, the nose-to-tail turn is the lowest risk option to give me time to size up the opponent to see what his plane and the pilot is capable of.

Let's see what happens next!

Frame 3


In frame 3 you can see that the nose-to-tail turn has allowed me to gain both speed and separation from the P-38 without giving up too much angles. Somewhere mid Frame 3 I could have chosen to stop the turn and disengage by extending straight if energy states permitted.

In this case I realize that the nose-to-tail turn has given me both speed to now be effective in maneuvering and separation that I can continue my nose-to-tail turn back into the P-38 to begin turning the tables on him. Recall that if both planes continue a nose-to-tail turn they will eventually end-up in a re-merge as partially depicted in our nose-to-tail diagram here:

NOSE-TO-TAIL TURN:


This example is interesting because just like in the diagram above I've used a nose-to-tail turn but ended up giving some angles advantage.  I've lost the fight right?  Actually I'm able to use that as a way to bait and I'm now in a position to re-engage the P-38J with the ability to influence the fight the way I want it more readily.

Frame 4


Frame 4 shows the outcome of using the nose-to-tail turn to give me more control and options. The P-38 takes the angles bait and presses in for the attack.  I use the separation and speed gained by the nose-to-tail turn and translate them into maneuvering room to create a "Hi-Lo" Overshoot and into a barrel-roll defense and ensuing rolling scissors. What is a Hi-Lo Overshoot???.  I’ll address it more completely in another example, but in short I'm using relative differences in altitude, airspeed and lift vector orientation to equalize or gain the advantage.

Suffice it to say I'm able to force the P-38 out infront of me. The fight goes on a little bit more with us in a rolling scissor a bit and fortunately for me ends up with the P-38 crashing.

But as you can see, the outcome of the fight was dramatically influenced by me purposefully choosing to use a nose-to-tail turn instead of a nose-to-nose turn after the initial merge in order to give me the ability to dictate more of the outcome of the engagement later on! A simple and seemingly trivial choice of which way I turned at the merge made all the difference in the world!

More to come.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[CAP1]

SOOOO.....

please pardon if this sounds stupid......

but in the p38..either the J or the G, vs a spit, 109, or la, i would be better off to turn away from my opponent, just after the merge? i generally try to go up, and from then on, i try to keep my lift vector on my opponent. it works in the f6f for me, and sometimes in the 38. i'm fairly new to it, so i'm still learning.

thanks

<<S>>

[dtango]

SOOOO.....in the p38..either the J or the G, vs a spit, 109, or la, i would be better off to turn away from my opponent, just after the merge? i generally try to go up, and from then on, i try to keep my lift vector on my opponent. it works in the f6f for me, and sometimes in the 38. i'm fairly new to it, so i'm still learning.

The principles apply in the vertical as well.  In a nose-to-nose turn the aircraft with the smaller turn radius will have the advantage.  Just to re-illustrate here's a nose-to-nose turn with the turn circles overlaid to demonstrate.



I'd liked to address a few things in addition:

First in the vertical gravity effects your turn rate and radius.  Assuming a constant g pull-up if your lift vector is > 90 degrees oriented with the direction of gravity then your radius increases and rate decreases.  If your lift vector is < 90 oriented with the direction of gravity then your radius decreases and rate increases.  The net result is flight path that looks like this vs. a pure circle.




Second turn performance is relative to a lot of things.  For instance if you're in a P-38J and the bandit is an Spit, 109, or La-7 and both your aircraft are at your respective corner velocities when you start your turn into the vertical then most likely the Spit, 109, and La-7 will have the angles advantage.  However if the P-38J is at corner and Spit, 109, or La-7 is booking at speeds above the corner speed of the P-38J then it's likely the P-38J is going to have the angles advantage in a nose-to-nose vertical turn.  The lower wing-loaded aircraft isn't always the best turner.  It depends on the situation.


Third the "worse" turner might want to go ahead and make a nose-to-nose turn in the vertical for an energy fight.   If the differences in energy are great than it might make sense to go into the vertical like the following even if you're giving up angles initially.



This is the classic zoom or rope-a-dope attempt.  The energy fighter is ceding angles to the bandit to hang'em up but than turn the angles and positional tables around by out zooming the bandit.

It's really important to remember that air combat is relative to a lot of things.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

CAP:

One more thing.  All the above I've posted so far assume that lateral or vertical separation isn't really a factor meaning any lateral or vertical separation at the merge between opponents isn't enough to make a difference.  You have to take that into account as well.  I was going to introduce the concept via other examples but your's and others questions about a nose-to-nose merge in the vertical leads into the discussion.

Here's a pic from the AH Trainers website on the topic of merges:



Here we have two airplanes with essentially the same turn radius and turn rate.  Nose-to-nose, radius is the key factor right?  Therefore no one has the advantage then.  Well throw in vertical or lateral separation. The vertical separation is enough between the aircraft to become a factor now as depicted in the picture.  The airplane that started lower in the merge gains the advantage despite both aircraft having the same turn radius and rate.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[CAP1]

CAP:

One more thing.  All the above I've posted so far assume that lateral or vertical separation isn't really a factor meaning any lateral or vertical separation at the merge between opponents isn't enough to make a difference.  You have to take that into account as well.  I was going to introduce the concept via other examples but your's and others questions about a nose-to-nose merge in the vertical leads into the discussion.

Here's a pic from the AH Trainers website on the topic of merges:

(Image removed from quote.)

Here we have two airplanes with essentially the same turn radius and turn rate.  Nose-to-nose, radius is the key factor right?  Therefore no one has the advantage then.  Well throw in vertical or lateral separation. The vertical separation is enough between the aircraft to become a factor now as depicted in the picture.  The airplane that started lower in the merge gains the advantage despite both aircraft having the same turn radius and rate.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

aaahhhhh.......


ok...i usually dive for some speed. i see others going out of their way to dive UNDERR me. this makes that make sense. they can then do their veritcle maneuver a bit more relaxed? thus letting them hold more energy, but still get inside me/?

[Murdr]

aaahhhhh.......


ok...i usually dive for some speed. i see others going out of their way to dive UNDERR me. this makes that make sense. they can then do their veritcle maneuver a bit more relaxed? thus letting them hold more energy, but still get inside me/?

Correct.

[CAP1]

Correct.

the light's finally commin on. THIS has to be one of the best threads i've seen in here.

 now i only need to learn to put it to use. 

[Soulyss]

the light's finally commin on. THIS has to be one of the best threads i've seen in here.

 now i only need to learn to put it to use. 

I've really been enjoying this as well, somehow despite myself I've managed to gain some small measure of success in the MA without really knowing HOW or WHY something worked.  Learning a lot in this thread to answer those primary questions, thanks for taking the time to put this together Tango.

[Bruv119]

no problem, most of those charts make my head spin, i tend to ignore them 

bat your a man after my own heart!  i guess we graduated from the same school of flying and dying just in different games 

[mechanic]

the good old English method of ignoring the instruction manual and trying to get the job done on pure stiff-upper-lip-ness

[dentin]

the good old English method of ignoring the instruction manual and trying to get the job done on pure stiff-upper-lip-ness

Also known as O.J.T.  very effective learning concept for those of us that use the "manual" for other daily activities 

[dtango]

The Effect of Flight Path Separation in Nose-to-Nose Turns

As mentioned recently above flight path separation is an important factor in nose-to-nose turns.  We’ll take a closer look at the topic.  Consider the following diagram:





Red and blue aircraft are approaching each other from opposite directions.  In our example we assume they both have the same turn performance in terms of radius and turn rate.  In this example, there is initial flight path separation between red and blue.  In a nose-to-nose turn this initial flight path separation results in red turning behind the 3/9 line of the blue aircraft.  That’s why in head to head merges some pilots will dive first before the merge.  The idea is to create vertical flight path separation by diving.

Flight path separation applies not only in the vertical but lateral/horizontal as well.  Inside of purely diving, an aircraft can initially turn away and then turn back into the approaching bandit to attempt to create flight path separation.  The classic example is described by Bob Shaw in “Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering”.  One approach to this merge is to unload and make a shallow oblique nose low turn away from the bandit, then reverse the direction of turn back into the bandit while transitioning back into a climb to reduce airspeed to corner and making a hard turn into the bandit.

Of course one counter to the vertical or lateral flight path separation is to take away that turning room by continuing to point your nose at the bandit and pass a close to head-to-head as possible.  This has the effect of taking away the flight path separation.



Aircraft with the relative smaller turn radius can make nose-to-nose turns at a flight path separation disadvantage as demonstrated in the following diagram.


 
The aircraft with the smaller turn radius is able to get an angles advantage despite the lateral offset.  This is possible if the bogey’s turn diameter is larger than the flight path separation and the turn diameter of the aircraft with the smaller turn radius. 

The fighter with the smaller turn radius must be careful not to disregard the flight path separation that might exist.  Attached is a film snippet of a P-51D and F4U1-A merge in the MA I had.  Here’s an image demonstrating the critical juncture of the fight: 



I dive in my Mustang as we approach the merge and turn in the vertical.  The F4U1-A responds with a nose-to-nose turn in the vertical.  Even though the F4U1-A has a smaller turn radius the flight path separation proves to be too great to offset allowing me to saddle up on the six of the F4U1-A.

Attached film:
http://thetongsweb.net/412th/film125_f4u_p47_h36t_0001.ahf


Impact of Airspeed on Nose-to-Nose Turns

Separation distances between aircraft impacts nose-to-nose engagements in other ways as well.  Turn radius is actually not the only factor that determines advantage in one-circle engagements. 

In certain nose-to-nose situations turn radius doesn’t determine angular and positional advantage.  Instead it’s determined by airspeed instead.  How much advantage depends on the separation distances between airplanes.  Consider the following diagram:





In the illustration we have red and blue abeam of each other with circular flight path overlays to visualize the turn circles.  Red has a smaller turn radius but greater airspeed while Blue has a larger turn radius but is travelling slower than Red.  Blue is able to get the angles advantage because it is travelling slower than Red despite it’s larger turn radius and lower turn rate!

In a nose-to-nose turn when aircraft are abeam of each other and the separation distance between the two is less than the turn radius of the larger turn circle the aircraft with the slower airspeed gains the advantage.

This is one of the ways planes like the P-51 will catch better turners by surprise.  For instance when I’m flying a P-51 against a Spitfire XVI and I recognize that we’re in this situation I’ll yank throttle to idle and deploy as much flaps as I can in an effort to slow down and force the Spitfire out front.

If the separation is greater than the larger of the two turn radii then turn radius becomes the dominant factor once again.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[humble]

The 2 circle fight offers a lot of potential advantages, one of the biggest hurdles to overcome is the "when". Thats a complex question with a lot of variables so it defies easy classification. As a general rule my thoughts are as follows...

1) The higher you are the more universally valuable the 2 circle fight is since it requires the availability of space to mirror your opponent.

2) If your in a negative position the two circle fight wont make things worse and often will maximize any available gain. As an example if your -E/-@ then a nose to nose turn will equalize angles with minimal impact on relative E state.

3) A two circle fight can often take an opponent off "his game" and force him/her to improvise on the fly.

If your interested in the concepts my advice would be to employ it initially as a defense of last resort. Any time you feel a fight going the wrong way look for a chance to throw a 2 circle move in to equalize things. As you progress then look to incorporate it in your +E moves as a change of pace. It's also viable as a merge change up vs the plane you hate the most/have the most trouble with...

I happened to film this earlier today, its basically flown just about entirely as a neg E 2 circle fight. When employed from this position the 2 circle (regardless of plane match up) creates some interesting offensive possibilities from negative positions. Obviously the SBD has exceptional nimbleness but suffers a very limited powerband. A 202/Fm2/A6M/109E*F/P40B offers enough of the former and a much improved vertical pop...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/2circlefight.ahf

[CAP1]

sorry for just bumping this thread back up, but i couldn't find it. there is a TON of good stuff in this one. i almost wonder if it should be stickied.

thanks guys!

[uptown]

http://www.bss214.com/tactics/tacticsguide.html Here's a site with some basic and advanced merges and tactics.