A question about the pony

[SectorNine50]

That would imply that conversely, the Germans always flew as individuals, disdained teamwork? 

No, the reason the Pony seems worse than it's reputation in AHII is because it is being asked to fight some of it's historical allies in the weeds, instead of doing high-altitude escort, and because some of it's historical opponent's are rather "optimistically" modeled, and the Pony is modeled rather...bleh.

No, not what I'm saying.  If the Pony's keep their speed up, the speed of the pony allows constant BnZ with 2 aircraft.  With correct tactics, you can really keep multiple opponents below you with relative ease.  If they try to climb up to you, which 109's and Spits feel they can do because of the gobs of power, your teammate can easily swing in and hit him while he's in his slow climb.  Now, of course, you can do this in 109's, but the fact that the dive speed is somewhat limited tends to put a damper on it from my experience, at least in AH.  190's give me no worries in AH when in the P-51, and their verticle performance is no where near as good as the 109's.

I'm sure everyone has different experiences, of course, but I find it very hard to deal with a couple Ponies with an "E" advantage working as a team no matter what aircraft I'm in.

[BnZs]

No, not what I'm saying.  If the Pony's keep their speed up, the speed of the pony allows constant BnZ with 2 aircraft.

More like the zoom/climb and E-retention allow constant bnz, but yeah, true. Of course, this is also true of a pair of F4Us, a pair of Jugs, a pair of 190s, etc.

Now, of course, you can do this in 109's, but the fact that the dive speed is somewhat limited tends to put a damper on it from my experience, at least in AH.

What's the problem here? Our AHII 109s don't get stiff controls until you pass 400mph IAS. 400mph IAS is way fast, especially at a little higher altitude. (Galland would have given his right nut for 109s that handle like the ones in AHII IMO.  ) Bnz was a fairly standard tactic for the Germans from the Spanish Civil war onward.

  190's give me no worries in AH when in the P-51, and their verticle performance is no where near as good as the 109's.

The 190D has an initial climb rate of over 4,000fpm and remains a front-runner in climb rate up to 15K. If anything, one would think it's zoom qualities would be superior to a 109s because of greater mass and "density". So yes, it isn't quite the vertical performer the 109G-14 or K is but it outclasses the P-51. The only quality where the P-51 is definitely superior at typical MA alts, and the one that makes the 190 easier to fight, is wing-loading. Of course, this turns out to be important...makes one wonder why the Germans devoted so many resources to 190s when the game demonstrates that the Messerschmidt is obviously far and away superior?  Oh well.

I'm sure everyone has different experiences, of course, but I find it very hard to deal with a couple anything with all the advantages ganging me no matter what aircraft I'm in.

Fixed! 

BTW, do you happen to have much time in the P-47 D-11?

[Anaxogoras]

Fwiw, the VVS always considered the 109 to be superior to the 190.  Their opinion of the 190D-9 was harsh, something like "it burns as well as the others."

[colmbo]

and WWII pilots did not use flaps nearly as aggressively as we do in AH. 

While sim pilots may not use flaps correctly, I wouldn't go so far as to say WWII pilots didn't use them aggresively.   Scroll down for the reports about flap usage:  http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

[BnZs]

Yes, pilots used whose airplanes featured specifically designed maneuvering flaps that could be safely deployed at relatively high IAS used them at their *maneuvering* setting. But we end up dumping full flaps in everything all the time in AHII. That is probably because our flaps auto-retract instead of causing damage at high air speed. If we got rid of the auto-retract, things would be different. Of course, then the Corsairs would have ANOTHER advantage. 

[Ack-Ack]

But we end up dumping full flaps in everything all the time in AHII. That is probably because our flaps auto-retract instead of causing damage at high air speed.

We do?  Speak for yourself, those of those that know how to properly use flaps in the planes we fly do it differently.  YMMV.


ack-ack

[Thias]

Here's a 51d flying against a k4 merging co-alt, co-e.
While the 09 can potentially control the fight with it's engine power, the pony is certainly not helpless. Like with any plane match up, it really comes down to acm choices and the pilots control over his weapon. This was definitely a close fight though and makes for entertaining viewing.

http://www.speedyshare.com/794256750.html

[BnZs]

We do?  Speak for yourself, those of those that know how to properly use flaps in the planes we fly do it differently.  YMMV.


ack-ack

You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.

Yeah yeah, we all know that it's rarely a good idea for a Pony or a P-38 to be wallowing with full flaps in midst of an MA melee, etc. and so forth. Thanks for throwing a truism out there.

The fact remains that many planes like Spitfires in which combat flap usage is a dubious r/l proposition will deploy them frequently to their advantage in prolonged fights, at least partially because damage from excess speed is not a worry.

[moot]

I'm not quite as good as Bighorn, and I was nearly neck and neck dueling him in a 51D vs his K4. The 51D is definitely not helpless

[Ack-Ack]

You spend your day cruising this board looking for any excuse to make one of your snide little remarks don't you? Seriously, get a life.

Stop using blanket statements that aren't accurate.


ack-ack

[Steel]

Thias,

That K4 made a LOT of mistakes...   

A few turns into the fight he had a 5,000 feet alt advantage. Even if the 109K4 cant kill the 51 he should be able to survive. The K4 can outrun, outclimb, and can turn with the 51 rather nicely. The K4 overshot and allowed Scotch back into the fight. I fly the 51 more than 99% of AHers and the 109K4 dominates it. Only a mistake by the K4 or being at a disadvantage can change that.

Steel

[Thias]

That's the whole point of ACM and why people need to push their plane to the limits.

Duel?

[Steel]

Whos in what?   

I suck in German iron.....nothing to do with country of origin either. They just dont fit my style of fighting like the 38, 47, and 51. Given two equal pilots in their respective rides the 109K4 wins. I agree ACM can change the balance but thats not really the point for me. On paper and in the air the K4 dominates nearly every category. Catch me on tomorrow and I will be glad to fly the 51 in a matchup like that.

Steel

[Thias]

It wasn't like the k4 was slopping it around. He just flew into the 51's fight at that point. (Alt/E being used against him for the overshoot, though that overshoot almost didn't work).

Btw k4 is my main ride.  Of course I know all of that. But the point I'm making is that if you fly solely based on paper, you're going to be running timid a lot of the time when you don't need to. If needed I'll make some 51 vs x plane films. And I can show a slough of k4 vs x films too.

I'll dissect that film a little tomorrow and answer the original posters question a little better.

[Larry]

Steel you should talk to B4buster about a pony vs 109k fight. A few weeks ago when the AvA was having the P-51D vs 109K match up he flew that thing like Iv never seen it flown before. During that week I killed him 28 times and he killed me 10 times. Every time he made me work very hard for the kill and most of the time I didn't make it back to base because he would get an oil or radiator hit. From all my pony vs k4 fight what I can tell you is if you want to beat the K4 keep him from dropping flaps. If you can keep the 109K in a turn fight above 180mph then the pony will win, but once he gets his flaps down the game is over.