Called Police 2nd time in a week

[WMLute]

What you think will happen once you have a dead body in your house? You call the police, they knock at your door, pat you in the back, and you all go have a beer?

There are many states in the U.S. that have a "make my day" law.  They are based on the Castle Doctrine. Many of these states have added a "Stand your Ground" clause to the Castle Doctrine.

Many of these states give the homeowner immunity from a civil lawsuit.

Here is a snipped from the law in North Carolina.

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section..[15]

Oklahoma, where I lived for many years, passed it's "Make my Day" law back in 1987.  The law was pushed through by Sen Charles Ford (R) who said about the law....

"the purpose of the law is to protect the victim of crime who defends his home and his family against unlawful intrusion from any criminal prosecution or civil action," Sen Ford said last week.

"We considered it outrageous that someone who protects his home and family should suffer. Our law says you can use any force, including deadly force, to defend your home."

So yes, in many states in the United States if you catch someone in your house, you can shoot and kill them and face no repercussions.  You do not have to even announce yourself.  Someone breaks into your home in Oklahoma and you can kill them and are immune to criminal and civil prosecution.

Not sure if the officers will take you out for a beer after they show up, but I had several friends who were in law enforcment in OK and knowing them it is possible.

(edit: I might also add that burglery in Oklahoma dropped a TON after the law was passed.  It almost was cut in half in just a few years)

[spacer]

My Dad always said if your going to shoot some one make sure you Kill them!
By the way.  Some states require that the Criminal intruder be dead in the House, not just on the property.  So if the slime bag crawls out the door, drag him back in!

Here is a thing to think about!  If you do get a Gun/Pistol/Rifle to defend your house, make sure that you are willing to pull that trigger!  Because if you don't most likely the criminal will be willing to take it from you and use it.

[smkelly13]

What states allow this "make my day" rule?  You provided two, but there are fifty states.

[AKHog]

Getback, as others have said its very important to know your states gun laws before you protect yourself with a gun. In many states you must be in immediate physical danger to shoot someone. In some states you literally need to back yourself into your closet and wait for the bad guy to come to you and threaten your life before you can shoot. Some of the things suggested here like firing warning shots before you shoot someone or loading blanks would end up with you in jail in a few states. And killing a teenager for petty theft from your neighbors house isn't going to go over very well anywhere in the country. Not to mention, killing someone for theft will likely weigh heavily on your own mind for years.

Where exactly do you live? If you think the neighbors stole your dog, you have abandoned houses around you, and you have repeated problems with crime at your house and around the neighborhood, I can't help but wonder why you still live there? I understand sentimental value of houses that have been in the family for a long time or even the feelings associated with being ran out of your own neighborhood, but at some point you've got to take a step back and look at the big picture.

I lived in a crappy area (Riverside, CA) for long enough to appreciate what you are going through. I then moved to a much smaller but rapidly expanding town in Arizona that wasn't much better. Hard drugs were the main problem in both areas. After years of dealing with the problems of living in these types of areas, not just the crime but everything, my wife and I made a conscious decision to re-prioritize our lives and put more value on our day to day lifestyles. We moved to a small mountain town and never looked back. When we rented our current house it was on a handshake, and we've never even got keys to our front door. I haven't taken the keys out of my truck ignition for years. I leave my fancy down jacket or sunglasses at the local bar and they are waiting for me when I come back. We had a very small crime wave a few summers ago when some meth heads were passing through town (its too cold for them here in the winter). I heard of 2 cars being broke into and some things were stolen. These guys were found and 'ran out of town' before the cops even really knew what was going on.

All I'm saying is you are not trapped in your current situation and you can make changes that will end the crime and end the thoughts of protecting yourself with a gun. Well maybe thats not completely true... I have a shotgun at the ready for 'home defense' but its more likely it'll be used against a bear or mountain lion attacking my dog than another person.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Being that I am a Policeman Frenchy I think I have a pretty good idea about what would happen.

Trust me, anything that "could" happen is a whole lot better then you being the dead body in your house.

Great, so you can comment on that. When I got my concealed, I read the recomanded books, talked to police officers that I met at the range, because "what happens when the shooting stops" was my main concern. Call me paranoiac, but as much as I support protecting your familly with a firearm, I know that we live in a society filled with monked up values ranging from soccer moms to money hungry lawyers and clueless judges.

So between the chitchating and J. Farman's "The Farman method of Defensive Handgunning", I figured that this is what would happen to me once I had to shoot someone in my house in fear for my familly's life:

Farman's advises to leave the house with your flock, and so did the couple SLC police officers I chatted with. They said they are not in the "rescuing business" anymore, so they will surround your house like if it was still full of bad guys, and if I stay in it, the first thing that will come in will be a flash grenade or a dog. Neither of both will know that I'm "the good guy". Then the smoke settles, and everyone is taged, they'll collect my firearm as evidence, the scene will be treated as a criminal homicide, I'll be read my Miranda rights, blood sample, gun residue test, interrogation. It's my understanding that Police has to treat the case as a standard criminal investigation till I get cleared by the County Attorney about a week later.

<To me that means right there, that my neighbors will be awaken by a bunch of police cars, see guns drawn toward my house, and me leaving handcuffed for shooting someone. Doubt my daughter will have many friends staying home after that, nor Bobby Goestochurch lending me his snowblower.>

The SLC concealed instructor said that in Salt Lake county about 80% of the self defense shooting end up in "wrongfull death" civil suit of an average cost of $50,000 and a 10 years length suit. They also warn about lawyers that are pretty good at describing you as the local gun nut, that lured "honor student 1976" into his house so he could try his new lazer scope with his man killer special edition bullets..

<Great so now I have to leave the next 10 years with a Damocles sword on the top of my head, and barely make hands meet at the end of each month, probably not being able to pay for my kid's college.
Then I doubt that familly and/or friends/gang of the rat I shot will stay on the sidewalk crying. They might gear up and my house will be called "the Alamo", but will probably settle for the coward approach of "drive by" my daughter on her way to school. Since I don't want to take that risk, that means I'll have to freacking move out of the house/state, go thru the hassle of finding a new job for my wife and I, break my kid's heart because we have to move once again to a new place and she really loved it here, had so really great friends.>

That's what I mean with "snowballing undesirable events". Granteed I prefer to use my 1911 and ruin the rest of my life, rather than having my familly member killed. After familly meeting, we concluded that the "house defense" plan was to stay upstair and shoot at anyone coming upstairs. Let the bad guys run away with TVs and laptops from downstairs. In other words, we are protecting the bodies, not the goods. It seems the best economical option anyway, plus an extra chance of "delaying staying out of trouble".

[Shamus]

My Dad always said if your going to shoot some one make sure you Kill them!
By the way.  Some states require that the Criminal intruder be dead in the House, not just on the property.  So if the slime bag crawls out the door, drag him back in!

Do not ever do that, its where the shooting took place not where they guy crawled to.

If you start dragging a body around, the investigation will take a turn to an area you dont want it to.

shamus

[smkelly13]

Getback, as others have said its very important to know your states gun laws before you protect yourself with a gun. In many states you must be in immediate physical danger to shoot someone. In some states you literally need to back yourself into your closet and wait for the bad guy to come to you and threaten your life before you can shoot. Some of the things suggested here like firing warning shots before you shoot someone or loading blanks would end up with you in jail in a few states. And killing a teenager for petty theft from your neighbors house isn't going to go over very well anywhere in the country. Not to mention, killing someone for theft will likely weigh heavily on your own mind for years.

Where exactly do you live? If you think the neighbors stole your dog, you have abandoned houses around you, and you have repeated problems with crime at your house and around the neighborhood, I can't help but wonder why you still live there? I understand sentimental value of houses that have been in the family for a long time or even the feelings associated with being ran out of your own neighborhood, but at some point you've got to take a step back and look at the big picture.

I lived in a crappy area (Riverside, CA) for long enough to appreciate what you are going through. I then moved to a much smaller but rapidly expanding town in Arizona that wasn't much better. Hard drugs were the main problem in both areas. After years of dealing with the problems of living in these types of areas, not just the crime but everything, my wife and I made a conscious decision to re-prioritize our lives and put more value on our day to day lifestyles. We moved to a small mountain town and never looked back. When we rented our current house it was on a handshake, and we've never even got keys to our front door. I haven't taken the keys out of my truck ignition for years. I leave my fancy down jacket or sunglasses at the local bar and they are waiting for me when I come back. We had a very small crime wave a few summers ago when some meth heads were passing through town (its too cold for them here in the winter). I heard of 2 cars being broke into and some things were stolen. These guys were found and 'ran out of town' before the cops even really knew what was going on.

All I'm saying is you are not trapped in your current situation and you can make changes that will end the crime and end the thoughts of protecting yourself with a gun. Well maybe thats not completely true... I have a shotgun at the ready for 'home defense' but its more likely it'll be used against a bear or mountain lion attacking my dog than another person.

1.  It's not really relevant where exactly he lives, theft is a crime of opportunity.  I live in northern Michigan, the county has three stop lights, but the breaking and entering rate is ridiculously high.  Many people have summer homes, we call them snow birds, meaning that once snow is on the ground, they flee to the south.  This gives criminals the greatest opportunity to raid many homes.  Granted, being a white male/female in Harlem would be 100x worse, but, just saying location is the only cause of theft is wrong.
2.  Financial problems could be a stem of why he hasn't moved out yet, or even that he doesn't want to "retreat".  Manhood and pride outweigh common sense the majority of the time.  It happens.  And, we don't know if he's trapped.  The housing economy is non-existent.

Great, so you can comment on that. When I got my concealed, I read the recomanded books, talked to police officers that I met at the range, because "what happens when the shooting stops" was my main concern. Call me paranoiac, but as much as I support protecting your familly with a firearm, I know that we live in a society filled with monked up values ranging from soccer moms to money hungry lawyers and clueless judges.

So between the chitchating and J. Farman's "The Farman method of Defensive Handgunning", I figured that this is what would happen to me once I had to shoot someone in my house in fear for my familly's life:

Farman's advises to leave the house with your flock, and so did the couple SLC police officers I chatted with. They said they are not in the "rescuing business" anymore, so they will surround your house like if it was still full of bad guys, and if I stay in it, the first thing that will come in will be a flash grenade or a dog. Neither of both will know that I'm "the good guy". Then the smoke settles, and everyone is taged, they'll collect my firearm as evidence, the scene will be treated as a criminal homicide, I'll be read my Miranda rights, blood sample, gun residue test, interrogation. It's my understanding that Police has to treat the case as a standard criminal investigation till I get cleared by the County Attorney about a week later.

<To me that means right there, that my neighbors will be awaken by a bunch of police cars, see guns drawn toward my house, and me leaving handcuffed for shooting someone. Doubt my daughter will have many friends staying home after that, nor Bobby Goestochurch lending me his snowblower.>

The SLC concealed instructor said that in Salt Lake county about 80% of the self defense shooting end up in "wrongfull death" civil suit of an average cost of $50,000 and a 10 years length suit. They also warn about lawyers that are pretty good at describing you as the local gun nut, that lured "honor student 1976" into his house so he could try his new lazer scope with his man killer special edition bullets..

<Great so now I have to leave the next 10 years with a Damocles sword on the top of my head, and barely make hands meet at the end of each month, probably not being able to pay for my kid's college.
Then I doubt that familly and/or friends/gang of the rat I shot will stay on the sidewalk crying. They might gear up and my house will be called "the Alamo", but will probably settle for the coward approach of "drive by" my daughter on her way to school. Since I don't want to take that risk, that means I'll have to freacking move out of the house/state, go thru the hassle of finding a new job for my wife and I, break my kid's heart because we have to move once again to a new place and she really loved it here, had so really great friends.>

That's what I mean with "snowballing undesirable events". Granteed I prefer to use my 1911 and ruin the rest of my life, rather than having my familly member killed. After familly meeting, we concluded that the "house defense" plan was to stay upstair and shoot at anyone coming upstairs. Let the bad guys run away with TVs and laptops from downstairs. In other words, we are protecting the bodies, not the goods. It seems the best economical option anyway, plus an extra chance of "delaying staying out of trouble".

Well, it's hard to say, like I said earlier, what someone will/would do to protect their family, or their own life.  Many people would flee, leaving their family behind.  You see it all the time, the mother and father make it out of the burning building leaving their three children behind to burn to death.  The natural response is that "Oh, I'd never do that, I'd die to protect my family."  That's not a concrete answer.  Fear and selfishness are two very powerful emotions, which sometimes unfortunately outweigh love and devotion.  It's hard to think about, but it happens.

[smkelly13]

My Dad always said if your going to shoot some one make sure you Kill them!
By the way.  Some states require that the Criminal intruder be dead in the House, not just on the property.  So if the slime bag crawls out the door, drag him back in!

Here is a thing to think about!  If you do get a Gun/Pistol/Rifle to defend your house, make sure that you are willing to pull that trigger!  Because if you don't most likely the criminal will be willing to take it from you and use it.

Yeah, that could have worked in the 1960's.  Ever seen the hit television series CSI?  There are three different ones, Las Vegas, Miami, and New York.  Forensic science has come leaps and bounds forward in the last ten years, ever hear of black light?  They use that at all homicide/shooting/stabbing/assault cases.  They'd find the nice smear trail of blood.

So no, do not even consider this advice to be of sound logic.

[Dragon]

Which one do you have? Been thinking about that for some time.

I bought the SVAT DVR system with 4 night vision cameras from Walmart online.  I wanted to get it from SAMS Club, but it was 3 weeks to get it to the store and online didn't offer any quicker options.  Walfart offered NDA shipping, and we wanted the system NOW, so we ordered through them and had it delivered to my work the next day.  Easy install, I ran the wires through the attic and have 1 camera watching the side of my house with the bedroom windows ( I hid it behind a downspout ) one on the front porch ( hiding between the downspout and the support post ) and 2 on the back of the house ( hiding between my outdoor speakers and the soffit )  Was about $700 total and the only problem I had was getting the online viewing to work, but I called SVAT and Lisa took control of my Visterd machine and clicked a few places and I was good to go at work.  Occasionally, ATT will change my IP address, so it's a simple matter of going to whatsmyip.org and getting the new IP and logging in at work.  I shrink the window to about 2x2 and am able to see all 4 views clearly and still have enough room to get my work done on my 19" square monitor.  It plugs into the back of the modem and my gamer hosts it.  It runs in the background all the time and I have seen no bad effects while flying.

[AKHog]

1.  It's not really relevant where exactly he lives, theft is a crime of opportunity.  I live in northern Michigan, the county has three stop lights, but the breaking and entering rate is ridiculously high.  Many people have summer homes, we call them snow birds, meaning that once snow is on the ground, they flee to the south.  This gives criminals the greatest opportunity to raid many homes.  Granted, being a white male/female in Harlem would be 100x worse, but, just saying location is the only cause of theft is wrong.

I'm not sure what you are arguing here? I'm not suggesting location is the CAUSE of the crime, simply that the likelyhood of being a victim of crime can be accurately estimated by location. Thats not an opinion, that is fact that many people like insurance adjustor's use every day.

Just because your town is small doesn't mean its immune to crime. And I wasn't suggesting that simply moving to a smaller town will stop the crime. But that is not to say that you can't easily pick a place to live that has low crime, and almost no violent crime. Believe it or not there are still plenty of places like that across the country.

[WMLute]

What states allow this "make my day" rule?  You provided two, but there are fifty states.

States with a Stand-your-ground Law
    * Alabama
    * Arizona
    * Florida
    * Georgia
    * Indiana
    * Kentucky
    * Louisiana
    * South Carolina (Persons not "required to needlessly retreat.")
    * Texas
    * Tennessee 2007 Tenn. Pub. Acts Ch. 210 (Amends Tenn. Code. Ann. § 39-11-611)
    * Washington (Homicide justifiable in the lawful defense of self or other persons present; and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished ...or in the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony... or upon or in a dwelling, or other place...)

I allready mentioned OK and NC, but would like to add Delaware and New Mexico to the list.  They have "stand your ground" type statutes in their laws.

Every state is different.  Find out what your state laws are.  I find myself in Pennsylvania now, and they don't have a "make my day" law, but they DO have one pending on the books.  In Oklahoma they are currently trying to pass a STRONGER "make my day law" that allows it's citizens to use deadly force anywhere they perceive danger, not just in their homes.

[AKHog]

I bought the SVAT DVR system with 4 night vision cameras from Walmart online.  I wanted to get it from SAMS Club, but it was 3 weeks to get it to the store and online didn't offer any quicker options.  Walfart offered NDA shipping, and we wanted the system NOW, so we ordered through them and had it delivered to my work the next day.  Easy install, I ran the wires through the attic and have 1 camera watching the side of my house with the bedroom windows ( I hid it behind a downspout ) one on the front porch ( hiding between the downspout and the support post ) and 2 on the back of the house ( hiding between my outdoor speakers and the soffit )  Was about $700 total and the only problem I had was getting the online viewing to work, but I called SVAT and Lisa took control of my Visterd machine and clicked a few places and I was good to go at work.  Occasionally, ATT will change my IP address, so it's a simple matter of going to whatsmyip.org and getting the new IP and logging in at work.  I shrink the window to about 2x2 and am able to see all 4 views clearly and still have enough room to get my work done on my 19" square monitor.  It plugs into the back of the modem and my gamer hosts it.  It runs in the background all the time and I have seen no bad effects while flying.

Just a suggestion, if all of your cameras are hidden then your security system is only doing half its job. Part of the idea is to let people know they are being watched. Most criminals are smart enough to know that if there is a camera then their actions are likely being recorded somewhere. If you are really afraid of people ripping off your real cameras there are plenty of fakes available. Some of them even come with working lights and motion.

[SmokinLoon]

Do not ever pull the trigger on someone unless you think your life or the life of another is in immediate danger... AND you need to be able to articulate that reason in court.


Some more thoughts to also keep in mind:

1. Do NOT shoot to wound or kill.  You shoot to end the situation.  If you wound, so be it.  If you kill, so be it.  

2. Do NOT shoot to save property.  I dont believe there is a state in the union that dosent have laws frowning upon that.

3. Shotguns and revolvers are the home defense weapons that are most often "smiled" upon in court.  Either of those two weapons are more defendable vs if you used an AR15 (etc) or an auto-loading handgun.  Time and time again that has shown to be the case.  An "assault" rifle and/or a hi-capacity handgun are quite often painted as "offensive" weapons where as the shotgun is a hunting device and the revolver a true defense handgun (or so goes a typical defense).  Also, a revolver is quite simple to operate and maintain, and have less things to go wrong.

4. Whatever you do, have a flashlight handy with whatever firearm you dicide to use for defense and do NOT.. do NOT... shoot at anyone you do not have positive ID on as being a threat to you, your family, or another innocent.

5. Make sure you VERBALIZE everything.  You MUST give the perp a chance to surrender, identify themselves, identify their business in your house, etc.  You MUST be loud enough so your neighbors, your family, neighbors dog, the 911 operator on the phone receiver you've just put down to confront the perp, etc can all hear the situation.  Be L O U D enough so even you cringe as you speak.


I spent 7 years of my life volunteering in the uniform of a deputy sheriff in Iowa.  This stuff was drilled into my head monthly.  Regardless of laws, all of what I have posted above is quite true and is taught country-wide.      

[WMLute]

While that may be true in Iowa most states have different laws on the subject.

As I allready posted Oklahoma does not require you to declare, and it's 100% fine to kill an intruder to protect your property.

[AKHog]

3. Shotguns and revolvers are the home defense weapons that are most often "smiled" upon in court.  Either of those two weapons are more defendable vs if you used an AR15 (etc) or an auto-loading handgun.  Time and time again that has shown to be the case.  An "assault" rifle and/or a hi-capacity handgun are quite often painted as "offensive" weapons where as the shotgun is a hunting device and the revolver a true defense handgun (or so goes a typical defense).  Also, a revolver is quite simple to operate and maintain, and have less things to go wrong.

All really good advice, but this point especially I think deserves more attention. As I've expressed before in other threads here, a semi-auto pistol like the common 1911 just doesn't make that great of a home defense gun. Too many people live in a fantasy, especialy when it comes to guns and protecting themselves. Not to turn this into another 2nd amendment debate, but you really dont need an assault rifle or hand cannon to protect yourself inside your house. Hunting weapons like shotguns do a much better job. If you must have a hand gun then a quality revolver is 100x better than any of the semi-autos simply because when you pull the trigger is going to work, no question about it.

When people come on asking about what model 1911 to get for home defense or what assault rifle to get for the same its painfully obvious that these people are watching too many movies and not thinking for themselves enough.

Like I said before, if you really think you NEED a semi auto pistol or 'battle' rifle to protect yourself you are simply living in a fantasy. Anything that would require that much firepower is not going to be a home defense situation. This is a typical "for when the zombies come" type of argument pushed by the extremes. However, I'm not saying you shouldn't have the right to own them.