Perking Bomb load out's

[BnZs]

Yes. As Karnak already explained, they converge on a single point. And actually that is 500yds, not 600 as I wrote earlier (I'm always messing that one up ). So the spread is even bigger than the 37ft I posted.

Fuzeman made a better illustration than my dry math:

(Image removed from quote.)

Okay, so the poor babies can only guarantee 4-6 .50s converging on one point. That's heartbreaking. I know the most frustrating part of the A-20 is the impotent firepower. 

[Karnak]

Okay, so the poor babies can only guarantee 4-6 .50s converging on one point. That's heartbreaking. I know the most frustrating part of the A-20 is the impotent firepower. 

They don't converge.  The guns on your bomber fire in parallel to each other.

[BnZs]

I was talking about the 2-3 positions on the single bomber firing on the target Karnak.

[Karnak]

I was talking about the 2-3 positions on the single bomber firing on the target Karnak.

Yes, they don't converge.  They fire in parallel.

[chewie86]

about the bombs and perk thing ... what about the drones instead ?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,250138.0.html

[Ack-Ack]

During which time you are vulnerable to the nose/ball turret or nose/top gunner positions. I have taken damage/been shot down during this phase out to D1000. I would suggest that if they are not shooting at you on the way out from these two positions you are not dealing with a very good gunner. Increasing your distance faster by extending away in a steep dive or energy-bleeding jinking about can make you a harder target but also interfere with any timely execution of step two. And step two...

No, you are not.  You're making the attack from above and then extending out beyong gun range before going vertical and looping over. 

...requires a very high initial energy overhead which may not even be possible for all fighter to maintain for 3 consecutive passes, especially at high altitude.

Again, no it doesn't.  I usually start my attacks at 300mph IAS and always have enough energy to be able to repeat my attacks.  At this point, it's all about energy management, those of us that know how to, will always have sufficient energy to repeat the attacks.  Those that don't, well, let's say they need to learn how to manage their energy.

And that is making the relatively optimistic assumption that 3 passes will do it, which may *not* be the case if is B-17s instead of B-24s with their magic wing-root fire button, or if you are keeping your airspeed especially high to minimize your vulnerability during the extension as described in step 1.

It's not a 'relatively optimistic assumption' that 3 passes will do it.  It's a given fact.  It never takes me more than 3 passes to kill a bomber, one pass, one kill.  There is not one bomber in this game that is not impossible to shoot down in one pass, as long as you know what you are doing, shooting down bombers is very easy.

I think the problem is that you aren't very experienced in engaging bombers or just don't know how.  Those of us that do, have absolutely no troubles whatsoever in shooting down bombers. 


ack-ack

[BnZs]

No, you are not.  You're making the attack from above and then extending out beyong gun range before going vertical and looping over. 

You realize buffs have guns that are capable of being fired forwards right? Several of them in fact. The nose, ball, and top turrets. If you are not being shot at by them during your extension then something very odd is going on.

Again, no it doesn't.  I usually start my attacks at 300mph IAS and always have enough energy to be able to repeat my attacks.  At this point, it's all about energy management, those of us that know how to, will always have sufficient energy to repeat the attacks.  Those that don't, well, let's say they need to learn how to manage their energy.

Yeah, I know nothing about managing energy.  THATs the explanation.

I think the problem is that you aren't very experienced in engaging bombers or just don't know how.  Those of us that do, have absolutely no troubles whatsoever in shooting down bombers. 

I think the problem is that people DO have high k/d ratios against bombers-including me, if you wish to check-but don't admit that this comes largely from the fact that many bomber pilots are clueless, that they are only attacking from a good position, and probably bugging out if the buff gunner proves too dangerous. All of which does nothing to argue against my point that strategically buffs rule the game, due to the twin factors of the difficulties of intercepting them and the supreme accuracy of the bombing.

[moot]

Bombing is too easy (and too easy to game, e.g. divebomb) and it's kinda hard to intercept them; but not too hard. And those two don't amount to them ruling the game by any stretch. They might if there were about twice as many bomber players.
Another thing that should change, along with the bombsight system, is external views. You should be put right back into first person perspective when you pull the trigger in gunner position.

[Lusche]

I think the problem is that people DO have high k/d ratios against bombers-including me, if you wish to check-but don't admit that this comes largely from the fact that many bomber pilots are clueless, that they are only attacking from a good position, and probably bugging out if the buff gunner proves too dangerous. All of which does nothing to argue against my point that strategically buffs rule the game, due to the twin factors of the difficulties of intercepting them and the supreme accuracy of the bombing.

All of it argues against your point, and even more: The reality of MA gameplay.

Bombers do not "rule the game". Every day flying & fighting and killing buffs in droves does show it. Occasionally there is the odd bomber mission by a few guys knowing their stuff and manage to shut down an airfield completely - but thats not the norm. And usually even those raids can be stopped if players would only take attention to the tale-telling darbars

Buffs are vulnerable, fly in in single formations most of the time, far too low to get any amount of safety from altitude. Most buff gunners are not good enough to prevent the death of their ride by any serious attacker. Bombers need much time to climb to alt & get to target - why is it that almost all serious porking is done by hvy jabos? It's them who really "rule" the game, being much harder to intercept, can drop a hangar on their own, are tactically much more flexible.
The majority of buffs in game are not muich more than targets. Buff in this game are far from being an unbalancing force. Disabling formations would effectively remove them from game, thus greatly impacting gameplay in a negative way: Less choices, less options, less fun for new players, less variety.

[BnZs]

Did some more "testing".

The idea that there is ANY angle you can approach a good buff gunner from for a high% guns solutions without standing a good chance of being shot by hugely lethal guns remains fantasy fed by all the clueless noobs trying to gun or the number of kill garnered while the buffer is in the bombsight.

[Ack-Ack]

You realize buffs have guns that are capable of being fired forwards right? Several of them in fact. The nose, ball, and top turrets. If you are not being shot at by them during your extension then something very odd is going on.

You don't say?  Wow, and all this time I thought it was just party favors they were tossing my way.  Sure, they can shoot at me but the chances of a hit are very low.

Yeah, I know nothing about managing energy.  THATs the explanation.

I wasn't sure with your previous comment, sounded like it came from someone that really doesn't know how to manage their E state properly.  *shrug*

I think the problem is that people DO have high k/d ratios against bombers-including me, if you wish to check-but don't admit that this comes largely from the fact that many bomber pilots are clueless, that they are only attacking from a good position, and probably bugging out if the buff gunner proves too dangerous. All of which does nothing to argue against my point that strategically buffs rule the game, due to the twin factors of the difficulties of intercepting them and the supreme accuracy of the bombing.

The fact is bombers are easy to shoot down when you use proper tactics. 


ack-ack

[moot]

Did some more "testing".

The idea that there is ANY angle you can approach a good buff gunner from for a high% guns solutions without standing a good chance of being shot by hugely lethal guns remains fantasy fed by all the clueless noobs trying to gun or the number of kill garnered while the buffer is in the bombsight.

So what? How many of those gunners are there that can shoot you down over ~60% of the time before you've done >60% damage to their bombers?  You can't unbalance the game just for some unrealistic need to stick to historical features/gameplay.  If you admit that there's an opportunity for a shot while they're scoped, you admit that they're open to losing easily 1 or 2 thirds of their bombload (their whole purpose to play) from what's a damn easy shot (tho the timing prolly takes practice) that any noob past the plane control learning stage can manage.  

[Tilt]

I struggle with the original reasons (given at the start of the thread) for perking bombs (ie so fun is spoilt for furballers)

However in the melee of the MA I do believe the present set up re buffs is potentially unbalancing whilst not representative of typical (combat) challanges of bombing. (please dont come at me with boring this aint real arguements I know this)

I can quite easily take out all the hangers in a small or medium field with either a formations of B24's  or Lancs. I will do this in two passes and only have to suffer (ususally) any sense of challenge on the 2nd pass if some one is already at Alt waiting.

I can bracket a hanger with 6 x 1000lbs with absolute precision from 20k thru a layer of light cloud. There is no skill to this or even judgement I merely follow procedure calibrating and checking speed against E6B speed to garantee absolute accuracy.

My view re the above is that what ever bomb drift there is now it is not enough.............. it should not be that easy.............


Taking 500lbers I can bracket the same hangers with a slightly wider spread of 12 x 500lbs to also achieve the same. Its marginally more difficult but not greatly so. However if bomb drift were more prevelent it would make it harder than when playing with 6 x 1000lbs.

In reality the temptation (when loaded with 500lb'ers) is to use 9 x 500lbs to achieve the same end............. and it can be done more often than not but at least its some sort of challenge. Its easier lower down but then interception is more likely lower down too.

If 1000lb + bombs on buffs were perked then those not wishing to risk bomber perks on these would be more challanged but could in the main achieve much the same with only a little more challenge.

For me there is insufficient bomb drift. I should not be able to identify a GV dot at 15K and pickle a single bomb right down its cupula...... but I can (provided it does not move).

There are of course other issues about level buffs being used in shallow diving low level attacks or even formations of heavy buffs used in anti GV roles. I believe forcing F6 for level bombers is the solution here I would even consider adding a greater delay on bomb arming fuzes when dropping from "level bombers".

IMO a mechanism in game that forces "bombers" to use the bomb aimer F6 (whilst enabling formations) whilst forcing "attackers" to drop from the cockpit (whilst disabling formations) would also open the way to addressing some balancing to the way Jabos are used.

Jabos carrying 2 x 1000lbs are unrepresentative. If we want to take a "rarer" load out we can invest our perks on it. Equally if we load ordinance on a fighter it should automatically switch classification to attacker and thoses perks won or lost should be "attacker perks".

Even 2 x 500lbs was considered a heavy load out.


So in summary I am all for perking ordinance and I would make it simple and apply a scale of perks that went on the bomb weight upto 500 (inc) no perk. Over 500LB(250 kg) a light perk scale would be applied. It would be based upon the average bomb weight not the total bomb weight.

I am not so sure about perking formations given the other balancing factors of increased bomb drift and a 500+ perk I am not sure if its then required.

[BnZs]

Waiting to grab your easy kill when they are in the bombsight means you have probably waited too late.

So what? How many of those gunners are there that can shoot you down over ~60% of the time before you've done >60% damage to their bombers?  You can't unbalance the game just for some unrealistic need to stick to historical features/gameplay.  If you admit that there's an opportunity for a shot while they're scoped, you admit that they're open to losing easily 1 or 2 thirds of their bombload (their whole purpose to play) from what's a damn easy shot (tho the timing prolly takes practice) that any noob past the plane control learning stage can manage.  

[BnZs]

You don't say?  Wow, and all this time I thought it was just party favors they were tossing my way.  Sure, they can shoot at me but the chances of a hit are very low.
ack-ack

I'm sure you just laugh at someone who thinks they are safe from your 38 at D800...but the shot is impossible for turret mounted .50s from a perfectly steady platform?