Author Topic: In Flight Collisions  (Read 1614 times)

Offline wolf37

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In Flight Collisions
« on: November 11, 2001, 06:35:00 PM »
Hiya All:

Why in a in flight collision does only one plane take damage. I have had many in flight collisions and I have yet to see the other plane go down as well. I do not try to ram enemy planes, the collisions happen well dog fighting, wheather it is a HO or rammed from behind. now I have been told that who ever is at fault is the one to crash or something like that. but on one occation, a plane came up behind me rather fast and as I tried to avoid getting shot down I pulled up and turnnering to the righht, I heard the collision as he went by. Now I ended up loosing a wing and he went on to shoot down another plane after I had crashed. so I know he did not crash. Now in real life war time, if two planes collided, they both crashed, not just one plane. I would like to see this put into place in the AcesHigh sim.

thanks

Offline sling322

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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2001, 07:32:00 PM »
Collisions are modelled by whoever's FE sees the collision.  If the other guy evades, then he doesnt take any damage.  If you see the collision on your FE then you take damage.  Really this is the only way to do it because of lag and other internet stuff.  Maybe someone who explained it so well the other thousand times the question was asked can step in here and give you better reasons, but as far as I know this is why they are the way they are.

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
I think what Wolf is complaining about are those times when a plane collides with you in your blind spot...your FE sees it, but you have no clue. I actually did this to a Lanc a few weeks ago. I did a belly attack, but misjudged my climb. I zoomed up in front of him without firing a shot. He exploded because on his FE I had zoomed up thru his belly. Its BS...there's gotta be a better way.

Offline Steven

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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2001, 08:19:00 PM »
I don't see why both planes can't take damage.  My FE tells the other computer when my bullets hit.  Why can't my FE tell the other computer when my plane (a big giant bullet) hits him?  I'm not sure how damage is detected in the game, but it can even maybe take into account speeds and where the collision took place so BOTH take appropriate damage.  Any discrepancies in the FE's can probably look to a table for a quick answer.  From what I hear, it's the fast connects that usually lose in a collision.

Offline Karnak

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Offline Steven

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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
I read the threads you posted and I'm not convinced.  There are times I watch my six and see the other player is not "nose on" and the bullets are missing me but I hear the hits a second later.  This was the hardest thing for me to deal with moving from games like Falcon to the online world.  Also, and what I see more of in Aces High, is that in an HO I will DODGE the enemy's shot and not see any bullets near me yet a second after the enemy has completely passed my aircraft to my six I will hear the damage and go down.  I just experienced this the other day in my F6F vs a diving HO F4U.  I never even saw the stinkin' bullets yet as he passes I lose my tail and flutter to earth like a feather.  I don't see what the difference is then between a bullet hit and an airplane hit.  

Also, who is to say who is at fault in the collision?  My opponent may dive on my six and see that he misses me to the side or in front of me, yet on my end my FE sees the Bozo run into me...I'll still be the only one to die.  If one player sees a bullet or airplane hit, both FEs should make amends with the damage.  I have no idea if it's truth or Aces High Legend, but I've heard of guys with slow connections taking their goons and trying to HO opponents as a means of survival.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2001, 12:38:00 PM »
Quote
There are times I watch my six and see the other player is not "nose on" and the bullets are missing me but I hear the hits a second later. This was the hardest thing for me to deal with moving from games like Falcon to the online world.
He was "nose on" to you on his FE.  His bullets don't have to hit you on your FE, just on his FE.  His FE then tells the server and the server tells your FE.  Your FE then appies the damage that his FE calculated and you hear the pings.
 
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Also, and what I see more of in Aces High, is that in an HO I will DODGE the enemy's shot and not see any bullets near me yet a second after the enemy has completely passed my aircraft to my six I will hear the damage and go down. I just experienced this the other day in my F6F vs a diving HO F4U. I never even saw the stinkin' bullets yet as he passes I lose my tail and flutter to earth like a feather.
There are several posibilities.

First there is net lag. Net lag makes HOs more leathal to both parties in a game like AH than it was in reality because even after you kill him he doesn't know about it for up to half a second and can keep firing at you. Due to the ammount of net lag when one of the participants has a poor connection you can be all the way past the enemy before you hear the effects of his firing. Poor connects suck, but there is not much that can be done about it.

Second is the possibility that he had his tracers turned off. When tracers are turned off neither the shooter or target sees any indication of rounds in the air. It makes it harder to hit for most people, but it also prvents the tracers from alerting a bounced target of his peril.
 
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I don't see what the difference is then between a bullet hit and an airplane hit.
Bullets that hit you on his FE and miss you on your FE, hit. Bullets miss you on his FE, but hit you on your FE, miss. An aircraft that hits you on his FE and misses you on yours, misses. An aircraft that misses you on his FE and hits you on your FE, hits.
 
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Also, who is to say who is at fault in the collision? My opponent may dive on my six and see that he misses me to the side or in front of me, yet on my end my FE sees the Bozo run into me...I'll still be the only one to die.
In the scenario that you described you are very clearly at fault.  You failed to avoind an oncomming aircraft.  He did nothing wrong on his FE, he simply put himself close behind you, something that we all do in dogfights.  How would it be fair to him if he were killed in that situation?
 
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If one player sees a bullet or airplane hit, both FEs should make amends with the damage.
That would cause all sorts of weirdness.  Imagine firing off a clumsy snap shot that clearly was poorly amined on your part and misses by a wide margin only to see the bandit explode because the bullets hit on his FE.  Would you feel good about getting a kill that had nothing to do with your skill?  Imagine executing a clean attack and dieing suddenly because there was a collision that there is no way you could have seen on his FE, how would you feel?
 
Quote
I have no idea if it's truth or Aces High Legend, but I've heard of guys with slow connections taking their goons and trying to HO opponents as a means of survival.
You'd have to have an insanely slow connection for that to work.  People may have tried it, but I'd be very surprised if it ever worked.
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Offline Steven

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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2001, 12:54:00 PM »
<<His bullets don't have to hit you on your FE, just on his FE. His FE then tells the server and the server tells your FE. Your FE then appies the damage that his FE calculated and you hear the pings.>>

Exactly.  So make a collision the same exact way.  You've still not shown me why it's okay that these are different.  

I don't see why it's okay for [the shooter's] FE to see bullet strikes yet they don't show up on [the target's] FE but the damage is recorded as opposed to it not being okay if [the attacker's] FE detects an airframe collision and the damage is not sent to [the target's] FE.

Just like bullets, you may not see the bullet "collide" with you, but you take the damage.  You may not see the enemy aircraft "collide" with you, but still you should take damage.

It's okay if a 30mm round hits you whether your FE detects it or not but it's not okay if an enemy aircraft hits you if you do not detect it.

[edited with shooter/target because I confused you with the shooter not seeing hits should count if the target sees them...though I doubt they hear pings unless the FE tells your FE to make ping sounds.]

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Steven ]

Offline Steven

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
I didn't read your whole msg...  This is almost like a half-full/half-empty debate.

<<You failed to avoind an oncomming aircraft. He did nothing wrong on his FE, he simply put himself close behind you, something that we all do in dogfights. How would it be fair to him if he were killed in that situation?>>

Then why is it freakin' fair if I am blown to bits by his bullets that my FE does not detect?  Answer me that and then I may buy that's it's okay to only damage one side in a collision too.

If you are okay with damage being taken by something your FE does not detect as hitting you, then you should be okay with it across the board whether it be by bullets, aircraft or flying monkies.

Offline MiG Eater

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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »
When was the last time two planes collided in mid-air with enough force to destroy one while leaving the other undamaged?  While I understand the FE discussion for airplane position, I don't understand using the FE's ability to "see" as a basis for the argument.  I know of several incidents in NTSB reports where one or both pilots did not see an impending mid-air collision.  That doesn't mean they didn't or shouldn't have been damaged.  If two planes collide on either front end, they should both take some form of damage.  The all-or-nothing damage model for collisions is a little unbelievable.

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Offline Steven

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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2001, 01:53:00 PM »
Okay, okay... I'm overposting.  But this one I actually took a few minutes to think out as I typed and here it is:

An object is an object is an object.  I don’t see why aircraft and bullets are differentiated.  I understand the problems with lag but I think the rule of collision-detection should be across-the-board.  You stated it’s my own fault if last second I see a guy dive onto me and I have no time to avoid him and my FE shows collision yet his does not and I am the only one to explode and die.  Point here is that the attacker did not see a collision (an object hitting an object) yet he is awarded the kill.  But, in contrast, you do not believe that it’s okay if the attacker does not see his bullets hit but the attacked does see/hear the bullets hit and blows up.  You said this would be confusing to the attacker.  This is the same thing just using different objects.  You contradict yourself.  These are in essence the same exact things yet you hold exceptions to the rule for some reason.

I really have no problem with collisions, it’s a rare occurrence for me but it does happen.  I have no problems with Aces High, I enjoy it and rarely have any problems other than my own stupid moves.  I just find flaw in your reasoning and justification.  I would like to further test your rules with an absurd example.  Say that my airplane shoots little bullets with wings and tail (and looks just like a little P-40) and has trained fleas who can fly themselves into an enemy aircraft.  (I’m trying to blur the distinction between aircraft and bullet to test your conclusion.)  Okay, my FE sees these little P-40 kamikaze/bullets hit your aircraft but your FE does not….what happens?  Or, my FE does not see these objects strike your aircraft but your FE does detect it…what happens?  Or, what if my airplane is faster than a “speeding bullet” and catches up with my bullet at the same exact time both my airplane and bullet strike your aircraft yet only my FE detects these things…what strikes you?  Both or only one object?  What if I flew a bullet that shot airplanes at you?  And object is an object is an object.  

I just don’t get your reasoning.  I think you are collision-o’-phobic or something.  ;-)

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
For what its worth, I agree totally. The collision model has always been one of my biggest gripes.

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2001, 02:44:00 PM »
Look at it this way:

In a HO situation you are closing quickly on the bandit. You fire, then you go and manuever out of position so your plane is no longer directly facing his plane. Therefore, you flew past him on your front end. You effectively avoided the collision.

He, on the other hand, in all his dweebiness fails to realize he needs to manuever as well- your "ghost" plane runs into him and he dies because he did not take the initiative to manuever out of the way.

I would hate to die becuase half these dweebs don't maneuver when they are going for a HO shot.

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Offline popeye

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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »
I'll take the collision model that we have.  At least it allows us to try to avoid the collision and survive.  If BOTH planes were damaged when one FE detected a collision, it would be open season for ramming.  Since we don't have the RL <cough> penalty for ramming, I'll take a gameplay concession to minimize it as an offensive "tactic".
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Offline whels

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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SWulfe:
Look at it this way:

In a HO situation you are closing quickly on the bandit. You fire, then you go and manuever out of position so your plane is no longer directly facing his plane. Therefore, you flew past him on your front end. You effectively avoided the collision.

He, on the other hand, in all his dweebiness fails to realize he needs to manuever as well- your "ghost" plane runs into him and he dies because he did not take the initiative to manuever out of the way.

I would hate to die becuase half these dweebs don't maneuver when they are going for a HO shot.

It's the best the way it is, until the internet runs in true real time.
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mmm no,

the way it is now, in a collision, u really hit something that isnt there according to the other players FE. he manuvered  and missed, but u hit him on ur FE. so u hit something that isnt really there and u die
but they go on as normal.

well the same could be said for bullet strikes. u fire and see hits on the enemy.
but on his FE he manuvered and see u miss.
but ur FE see u hit and enemy gets killed.
so u actually get a kill on something that
wasnt there.

same situation, both instances u hit something that wasnt there. 1 u die, 1 enemy dies. its BS to program hit detection for
a simular situation, but totally different
and contradicting outcomes.

either  u hit what u see, as in, firing bullets, or program for the lag as in
collisions.

either program collisions like bullet strikes, u hit what u see and both go down, or programm bullets like collisions, if u shoot at the target, u might miss cause
on his FE he turns  and u missed even though
u saw hits on ur FE.

whels