ENY and performance, your opinion desired

[Anaxogoras]

Please answer along the following criteria.  You have to assign all of the following categories a positive number.  All together they must add up to 14.  Assign the numbers in terms of your judgment of how important the category is to the ability of a fighter in the late-war main arena.

They are:

Speed at sea level
Speed at 10k ft
Speed above 10k ft
Climb at sea level
Climb at 10k ft
Climb at 15k ft
Turn radius
Turn radius w flaps
Lethality
primary weapon firing time (b key)
secondary weapon firing time (f key)
primary weapon ballistics
secondary weapon ballistics
200-300mph acceleration

For example, I've been toying with these numbers and just tried:

1.5  Speed at sea level
1.0  Speed at 10k ft
.25  Speed above 10k ft
1.5  Climb at sea level
1.0  Climb at 10k ft
.25  Climb at 15k ft
1.5  Turn radius
1.5  Turn radius w flaps
2.0  Lethality
1.0  primary weapon firing time (b key)
.25  secondary weapon firing time (f key)
1.0  primary weapon ballistics
.25  secondary weapon ballistics
1.0  200-300mph acceleration

Some important things are left out because they are hard to measure, e.g. forward view visibility, durability, and range come to mind.  Please forgive these flaws (for now) and give your opinion in the above format.  Thank you.

[Wingnutt]

you make my head hurt.

 

[Saxman]

I disagree with how you categorize lethality, firing time and ballistics on primary and secondary weapons.

First, I think you're overrating lethality. Yeah, the taters on the 109K pack a nasty punch, but just HITTING with them takes a lot of practice and luck. In a fighter vs. fighter engagement I'd say the 30mm is MAINLY a factor of fear--to the detriment of the K-4 because damned if any fighter who sees him coming is going to give him a clean shot.

For example: the A6M's 20mm cannon have the advantage in hitting power over the .50cal of the F4F, but the Ma Deuce's advantage in ballistics and muzzle velocity make them the FAR more effective weapons package (ok, I'll give you that this is an EW comparison, but the same can be said comparing German and American iron. The cannon on the German fighters may have the raw hitting power advantage, but the US .50cal are much easier to hit with).

For this reason, lethality and ballistics properties should both be weighted together in this case, perhaps one being a multiplier to the other, or averaging them together? Something like:

Gun Package = (Lethality + Ballistics)/2

As for Primary vs. Secondary:

You're SPECIFICALLY considering this as the actual primary and secondary triggers, correct? NOT assuming mixed weapon packages: IE, all cannon on primary and all machine guns as secondary? If this is the case remember the P-40E, P-51s, P-47s, F4F/FM-2, F4Us and F6Fs all have the same type of guns in both primary and secondary banks. In this case, I think the ballistics and firing time of the secondary bank is QUITE significant, considering that all the guns in the planes I mentioned have the same ballistics properties, (Browning .50cal for all except the F4U-1C) as opposed to aircraft with mixed armaments that can have a modest (.50cal and Hispano) to radical (German 13mm + 30mm) variance in the ballistics and muzzle velocity. Not only that, but some of these aircraft have an even distribution of rounds between both gun banks.

For example, if you look at the ammo distribution on the P-51B one pair of guns has 250rds/gun, the other has 380. The FM-2 has 430rds in all four guns. Both carry the Browning .50cal so ballistics don't come into the equation, but the FM-2 has a MAJOR advantage in firing time. Additionally, because the FM-2 distributes ammunition between all four guns equally she has a major advantage in lethality: The P-51B loses half its firepower after firing roughly 2/3 her total firing time. The FM-2's lethality remains consistent right up until the guns go dry.

To accurately rate all weapons on an aircraft we'd be looking at an even more complex equation. Maybe something like:

Gun Package = ( (Primary Lethality + Primary Ballistics + Primary Firing Time) / 3) + (Secondary Lethality + Primary Ballistics + Secondary Firing Time / 3 ) ) / 2

[FiLtH]

    Speed at sea level
    Speed at 10k ft
    Speed above 10k ft
    Climb at sea level
    Climb at 10k ft
    Climb at 15k ft
 5 Turn radius
 9 Turn radius w flaps
    Lethality
    primary weapon firing time (b key)
    secondary weapon firing time (f key)
    primary weapon ballistics
    secondary weapon ballistics
    200-300mph acceleration

[Murdr]

No offence, but I don't know why anyone would put this amount of effort in a hypothetical and acedemic discussion.  That is all it is unless HTC indicates that they have any interest in modifying their ENY values.

[Anaxogoras]

No offence, but I don't know why anyone would put this amount of effort in a hypothetical and acedemic discussion.  That is all it is unless HTC indicates that they have any interest in modifying their ENY values.

Most of the work has already been done for me!
 

[Karnak]

    Speed at sea level
    Speed at 10k ft
    Speed above 10k ft
    Climb at sea level
    Climb at 10k ft
    Climb at 15k ft
 5 Turn radius
 9 Turn radius w flaps
    Lethality
    primary weapon firing time (b key)
    secondary weapon firing time (f key)
    primary weapon ballistics
    secondary weapon ballistics
    200-300mph acceleration

You must really like the D3A1!

[A8TOOL]

They are:

Speed at sea level YAK -LA
Speed at 10k ft
Speed above 10k ft 109-K4 SPEED
Climb at sea level 109'S CLIMB
Climb at 10k ft
Climb at 15k ft
Turn radius FM2
Turn radius w flaps   
Lethality HISPANO


200-300mph acceleration

THATS WORTH A PERK

[Overlag]

0.75  Speed at sea level
1.0  Speed at 10k ft
0.75  Speed above 10k ft
1.0  Climb at sea level
1.0  Climb at 10k ft
0.25  Climb at 15k ft
1.0  Turn radius
1.0  Turn radius w flaps
2.0  Lethality
1.50  primary weapon firing time (b key)
1.25  secondary weapon firing time (f key)
1.25  primary weapon ballistics
0.75  secondary weapon ballistics
0.5  200-300mph acceleration

190a8 quad 20s.....?

[Max]

Please answer along the following criteria.  You have to assign all of the following categories a positive number.  All together they must add up to 14.  Assign the numbers in terms of your judgment of how important the category is to the ability of a fighter in the late-war main arena.

They are:

Speed at sea level
Speed at 10k ft
Speed above 10k ft
Climb at sea level
Climb at 10k ft
Climb at 15k ft
Turn radius
Turn radius w flaps
Lethality
primary weapon firing time (b key)
secondary weapon firing time (f key)
primary weapon ballistics
secondary weapon ballistics
200-300mph acceleration

For example, I've been toying with these numbers and just tried:

1.5  Speed at sea level
1.0  Speed at 10k ft
.25  Speed above 10k ft
1.5  Climb at sea level
1.0  Climb at 10k ft
.25  Climb at 15k ft
1.5  Turn radius
1.5  Turn radius w flaps
2.0  Lethality
1.0  primary weapon firing time (b key)
.25  secondary weapon firing time (f key)
1.0  primary weapon ballistics
.25  secondary weapon ballistics
1.0  200-300mph acceleration

Some important things are left out because they are hard to measure, e.g. forward view visibility, durability, and range come to mind.  Please forgive these flaws (for now) and give your opinion in the above format.  Thank you.

E = MC2

[uptown]

I just want to click on my little plane and fly, not crunch numbers. 

[Anaxogoras]

I just want to click on my little plane and fly, not crunch numbers. 

Adding to 14 is too much for ya?

[Anaxogoras]

I disagree with how you categorize lethality, firing time and ballistics on primary and secondary weapons.

First, I think you're overrating lethality. Yeah, the taters on the 109K pack a nasty punch, but just HITTING with them takes a lot of practice and luck. In a fighter vs. fighter engagement I'd say the 30mm is MAINLY a factor of fear--to the detriment of the K-4 because damned if any fighter who sees him coming is going to give him a clean shot.

For example: the A6M's 20mm cannon have the advantage in hitting power over the .50cal of the F4F, but the Ma Deuce's advantage in ballistics and muzzle velocity make them the FAR more effective weapons package (ok, I'll give you that this is an EW comparison, but the same can be said comparing German and American iron. The cannon on the German fighters may have the raw hitting power advantage, but the US .50cal are much easier to hit with).

For this reason, lethality and ballistics properties should both be weighted together in this case, perhaps one being a multiplier to the other, or averaging them together? Something like:

Gun Package = (Lethality + Ballistics)/2

As for Primary vs. Secondary:

You're SPECIFICALLY considering this as the actual primary and secondary triggers, correct? NOT assuming mixed weapon packages: IE, all cannon on primary and all machine guns as secondary? If this is the case remember the P-40E, P-51s, P-47s, F4F/FM-2, F4Us and F6Fs all have the same type of guns in both primary and secondary banks. In this case, I think the ballistics and firing time of the secondary bank is QUITE significant, considering that all the guns in the planes I mentioned have the same ballistics properties, (Browning .50cal for all except the F4U-1C) as opposed to aircraft with mixed armaments that can have a modest (.50cal and Hispano) to radical (German 13mm + 30mm) variance in the ballistics and muzzle velocity. Not only that, but some of these aircraft have an even distribution of rounds between both gun banks.

For example, if you look at the ammo distribution on the P-51B one pair of guns has 250rds/gun, the other has 380. The FM-2 has 430rds in all four guns. Both carry the Browning .50cal so ballistics don't come into the equation, but the FM-2 has a MAJOR advantage in firing time. Additionally, because the FM-2 distributes ammunition between all four guns equally she has a major advantage in lethality: The P-51B loses half its firepower after firing roughly 2/3 her total firing time. The FM-2's lethality remains consistent right up until the guns go dry.

To accurately rate all weapons on an aircraft we'd be looking at an even more complex equation. Maybe something like:

Gun Package = ( (Primary Lethality + Primary Ballistics + Primary Firing Time) / 3) + (Secondary Lethality + Primary Ballistics + Secondary Firing Time / 3 ) ) / 2

Saxman, that's an excellent criticism.  It's hard to compare the fighters that have the same weapon in both banks vs the ones that have drastically different weapons.  For instance, if we say that secondary weapon ballistics are important, e.g. we assign it a value of 1, then aircraft like the 109F-4 and SpitfireV gain too much for something that's really insignificant.  If we assign it something less, like .5, then an aircraft like the P-47 or Typhoon is cheated.

[999000]

<--------wouldn't have a clue...........
<S>999000

[waystin2]

Hello Gavagai,

My head hurts just thinking about it.     Kudos to you for diving into the game this deep.  I never could myself.

<Salute>