Bomber Gunners a WAY too Uber in AH

[eskimo]

Why don't you have to? (fly a bomber mission in AH)  What makes you so all knowing?  
Do you really think that everyone who reads this is going to think that you know all just because you say you do?

I, like many other simpilots in this game, am also a WWII aviation buff.  I, like many other simpilots in this game, could list dozens of books that I have read that have helped me develop my OPINIONS of tactics and gunnery.  But that's all they will ever be, opinions.  And that's all that you will ever have, opinions.

I am, however, pointing out that your perspective is extremly limited and narrowminded, that of a simpilot who flies only fighters.

One of my points is that there are many gunners in this sim that are far better shots than typical WWII gunners, simply because they have a heck of a lot more virtual experience at gunnery than any WWII gunner ever did at real life gunnery.  The performances are bound to be different.  In this game, we all have the opportunity to make virtual fatal mistakes dozens of times each night, and learn from them.  Not an option in WWII.

The single greatest point that I have made that suggests that buff guns aren't uber, is that bombers in AH have K/D ratios between .73 and .48.  (Even including kills of ground vehicles by bombs.)  You can argue all you want about the guns being uber, but the stats clearly suggest that they are not.

If buff guns are so uber, how did I manage to get a K/D ratio of 20/1 against them so far this tour?  (My overall K/D ratio this tour is only just a bit over 2/1)
{Hint #1, I use a variety of several different tactics, mostly German, when attacking bombers.}
[Hint #2, for example: When making a head-on pass, I roll!  It really screws up the gunners aim.]

I looked up just a few of the others who I know are also good buff killers: (Tour 10 results, so far)

Ypsilon 21/0   Mooj 28/4   Mitsu 15/2

Ketten,
It is extremely arrogant to suggest that an element of this game is porked simply because things are not working out how you want, or expect them.  The great thing about attacking bombers with a fighter is that you get to decide if, and when the attack will occur.  If you don't enjoy taking on buffs, then don't.  Otherwise, take the time to learn how to attack bombers.  
Don't expect that everyone is here just to be your cannon fodder.  Buff drivers spend a heck of a lot more time to get into the combat zone than the fighters do, they won't give up easily.  A lot of buff pilots think that this game is porked because THEY get killed too often!  The only people who have valid, unbiased opinions (IMO) are those who fly bombers and fighters.
IMHO, buffs should be even harder to kill, for the sake of gameplay alone.      

eskimo

[Karnak]

KetteJG26,
I do understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree.  I have found bombers VERY easy to kill in AH, although I must admit that my one HO attempt ended badly for me.  Bombers are already rare and making them harder to defend or, as another thread requests, harder to hit the target with, would cause them to all but disappear.
Another thing to consider is that an hour or more of effort in a bomber can be ended very quickly by five to ten minutes of effort in a fighter.  There is a large disparity of time investment between the two.

I flew a Lancaster mission tonight.  It took me an hour to climb to 11,000ft and fly a fifth of the way across the map.  After dropping 1 1000lb bomb on the Bishop's city I proceeded to their HQ.  As I was on my way I was intercepted by a Spitfire MkIX flown by loser111.  He came down on me from my 6 o'clock high.  At a range of 900 yards I opened up on him with the two 50s in my tail turret and the two 303s in my mid upper turret.  I nicked him and he flip-rolled and climbed away from me until he was 2000 yards above and a bit behind me.  At that point he dove to gain speed and get below me.  I knew he was going to try for a belly shot as my Lanc lacked any defense to that attack pattern.  I jumped to the cockpit and did a hard turn to the right to spoil his pattern, and then leveled out and jumped back into the tail turret.  He was already firing by the time I got a solution and returned fire.  Once again I nicked him with the two 50s and he broke off, but this time it cost me my number 1 engine.  Again he maneuvered for the belly shot and again I broke right to spoil it.  As he came up again RAFBader, a countrymen of mine, flying a P-51 nailed him from behind.  I was already shooting and I hit the Spitfire after it was already breaking up.  I had 40 rounds left in each of my 50 cals after that fight.  If it hadn't been for RAFBader, I don't think I would have survived.  Because I hit the Spitfire last, I got credit for it.  I then dropped my remaining 13 bombs on Bishop HQ and dove for safety.  Just after I got to 100 feet off of the ground I came under attack again.  I jumped to the Mid upper turret and gained the target in time to nick mrfish of the Fat Drunken Bastards before he killed me.  I don't know what he was flying, but I think it was an F4U-1D.

Now, if I had been in that Spitfire MkIX (my normal ride) I would have climbed above the Lanc and come down nearly vertical on it from about 5,000ft above it.  As I came down, I would aim for a wing as it is the most vulnerable part of a bomber (it also has the added benefit of not quite coming straight at the defesive guns, it throws their aim just a tad).  Walking the fire into the wing I would then dive past the bomber and pull up and climb ahead of it.  I have never had to make a 2nd pass on a bomber with altitude while using this technique.  Every time I do this I think that this is the time I have to make a 2nd pass, but I look back and every time the bomber is missing a wing.  I have also never been damaged while using this technique.  I use it against B-17Gs, Lancaster MkIIIs and B-26s.  I have never encountered a Ju88A-4 when I had a fully functioning Spitfire (or any other fighter).

I have only ever landed two bombers.  One was a B-17 that was missing its #2 engine, both aerilons and its top, ball and tail turrets.  The other was a Lancaster that was escorted by a P-38L.  Though the P-38 lost, it tied up the enemy to the point where he couldn't intercept me.  I have probably flown about 20 to 30 bomber missions in AH.

I don't fly much and am not very good, yet my Tour 8 record against bombers was 11 to 3.

I REALLY do recommend that you fly a few bomber missions.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Graywolf]

 

Originally posted by eskimo:
Imagine,
You are the top turret gunner on a B-17 over Germany, 1944.
The tail gunner call out that a FW-190 is making a 6:00 high attack on your plane, he is the only enemy in sight of your bomber.
And you decide, even though you could easily bear your guns on him, "He's not in my sector, I'll let the tail gunner deal with him"!
Like hell you would!  It's do or die time!
Heck, even the radioman would have popped open the top hatch and slid out his single 50 to take a crack at the 190.  

 

Instead, right now, in Aces High we have the scenario where there in an enemy inbound on the 6 on a bomber and one doing the more sensible (but much more difficult to set up) 12 o'clock attack and even though the bomber has guns that can bear on both targets one of them will get to make is gun completely onopposed (provided they egress sensibly).

This is a fundamental flaw in the model.

As I've said I really, really want AI gunners in bombers, they were flown by a *crew* not one man.

I don't ever expect to see it though, can you imagine the whining there would be if we did? =)



------------------
Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

[eskimo]

I agree that this is a problem and would also like to see it resolved, Greywolf.

Apparently having several gunners in one ship does funny things, I.E. causes warps etc.  I don't know much about the code and the details, but I will take HiTech's word for it.  In WB, you could/can have up to 6 human controlled gunners in a B-17.  It was a blast, my squad would occasionally put 14 guys in 2 ships and go trolling.  HTC doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes/problems that occurred in WB.

Most people don't like the Sgt. Otto approach.
I guess it comes down to an argument that parallels the auto-formation argument:
Do you want to fly the plane, or man the guns?  One could argue; learn to shoot, just as some argue learn to fly (formation).  The bottom line is, however, that B-17s had a 10 man crew, and we as sim-pilots are expected to do them all.  (Or if you get a gunner, up to 6 jobs per man.)

I think a good compromise would be to allow the pilot to man a set of guns and still allow 1 additional gunner to join him.  This would give the Buff at least a pathetic chance against 2 coordinated attacking fighters.  

eskimo

[Fury]

I'd be one of the first to whine about otto in AH.

At least with human gunners, you are dealing with humans who are shooting.  With otto, you will *never* be able to make both sides happy.  It will always be either too accurate or not accurate enough.

How many times has HTC change the way ack behaves in this game?  Ack is otto right now.  It's either too deadly or too easy.  Currently, it's easy.  Every time I've died from ack, it's been my fault -- there is a simple way to game the ack as it currently is set up.

I'd much rather worry about human gunners than the all-knowing, all-seeing otto.  At least now I have a chance to jump a buff, especially if his head is down (unless he has brought another gunner with him).

And as a buff driver, I'd rather man my own guns...even if my head is down.  And also, I don't want some stupid otto wasting all my ammo on bad shots....or not opening up at d1.4 because it's only programmed to open up at d800....or be such a bad shot that it hopelessly trails a good fighter pass, wasting all my ammo.  No way.

Fury

[eskimo]

Hehe fury,
I remember years ago, when I played WB.
A spit trailed my B-17 just at the guns max-otto range.  He danced around for a few minutes as otto ran out of lead.  He then slid into my six, drove up to D150, and hosed me!  Lesson learned.

I prefer manning the guns myself also.

eskimo

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by eskimo:
Hehe fury,
I remember years ago, when I played WB.
A spit trailed my B-17 just at the guns max-otto range.  He danced around for a few minutes as otto ran out of lead.  He then slid into my six, drove up to D150, and hosed me!  Lesson learned.

I prefer manning the guns myself also.

eskimo

I did that also  
I still do in AH sometimes when I have time to play with the buff.

Long time ago in WarBirds, I did turn gunners on and off to conserve ammunition, if someone tried to get guns out of ammo (and sometimes giving out a burst so he thinks I am firing.. then he comes in and WHAM  )

[KetteJG26]

 

Originally posted by eskimo:
Why don't you have to? (fly a bomber mission in AH)  What makes you so all knowing?
Don't pretend to be "ALL" knowing eskimo.  Pick up history book and read about what worked in WWII Air combat.  If its a sim then it should work here.
 
Do you really think that everyone who reads this is going to think that you know all just because you say you do?

I listed the resources in the begining..check em out yourself.

I, like many other simpilots in this game, am also a WWII aviation buff.  I, like many other simpilots in this game, could list dozens of books that I have read that have helped me develop my OPINIONS of tactics and gunnery.  But that's all they will ever be, opinions.  And that's all that you will ever have, opinions.

Events recorded in History are not Opinions.

I am, however, pointing out that your perspective is extremly limited and narrowminded, that of a simpilot who flies only fighters.

I never said I haven't flown bombers. Just not in AH m8.

One of my points is that there are many gunners in this sim that are far better shots than typical WWII gunners, simply because they have a heck of a lot more virtual experience at gunnery than any WWII gunner ever did at real life gunnery.  The performances are bound to be different.  In this game, we all have the opportunity to make virtual fatal mistakes dozens of times each night, and learn from them.  Not an option in WWII.

Same with fighter pilots in AH.....and?


The single greatest point that I have made that suggests that buff guns aren't uber, is that bombers in AH have K/D ratios between .73 and .48.  (Even including kills of ground vehicles by bombs.)  You can argue all you want about the guns being uber, but the stats clearly suggest that they are not.

If buff guns are so uber, how did I manage to get a K/D ratio of 20/1 against them so far this tour?  (My overall K/D ratio this tour is only just a bit over 2/1)
{Hint #1, I use a variety of several different tactics, mostly German, when attacking bombers.}
[Hint #2, for example: When making a head-on pass, I roll!  It really screws up the gunners aim.]

Gee your good m8!  Must have learned how to take out the "Klingon Battlecruisers!"

I looked up just a few of the others who I know are also good buff killers: (Tour 10 results, so far)

Ypsilon 21/0   Mooj 28/4   Mitsu 15/2

Ketten,
It is extremely arrogant to suggest that an element of this game is porked simply because things are not working out how you want, or expect them.  The great thing about attacking bombers with a fighter is that you get to decide if, and when the attack will occur.  If you don't enjoy taking on buffs, then don't.  Otherwise, take the time to learn how to attack bombers.

  I only made the post after asking a few questions from other pilots in the game.
Thanks for assuming that I am only trying to make things easier for me....
I think its extremely arrogant of you to hop in start flaming.  The only sensible argument you have made is the one I gave you about playability.  
 
Don't expect that everyone is here just to be your cannon fodder.  Buff drivers spend a heck of a lot more time to get into the combat zone than the fighters do, they won't give up easily.  A lot of buff pilots think that this game is porked because THEY get killed too often!  The only people who have valid, unbiased opinions (IMO) are those who fly bombers and fighters.
IMHO, buffs should be even harder to kill, for the sake of gameplay alone.

eskimo

You know its amazing that only a few people have agreed with my post which is fine.  Most people disagree and are fairly content with how the game is set up now.  Hey I'm not the only one flying here and that's why we have a bulliten board.  To discuss things about AH that concern us and give feedback to the developers.  Of all the people who have responded eskimo you are the only one who's acted like a jerk.  You make alot of assumption's about me personnally off a few lines of text in a discussion forum.

[Wilfrid]

Kette, did you run a search of the BBS of "Buff Gunnery" before posting?


Wilfrid

[eskimo]

Why don't you have to? (fly a bomber mission in AH)
Well Ketten?

"I listed the resources in the begining..check em out yourself."
Just because you say that you have read a few good books does not mean that that they support your point of veiw.  In fact I see little connection

"Events recorded in History are not Opinions."
Sorry, I don't get it?  Perhaps you read that 190s and 109s HOed B-17s and killed em.  Therefore everytime you HO a B-17 it should die otherwise the system is porked?  How the heck do you know that you are doing things just as they were done in WWII?   No sim will ever repeat all events that happened in WWII.  Even if the flight modeling and balistics in this sim were perfect, things would rarely turn out just as they did in WWII, because we are just sim pilots, playing for fun.

"I never said I haven't flown bombers. Just not in AH m8."
DUDE!  THIS IS WHAT YOUR ENTIRE POST IS ALL ABOUT!
BUFF GUNS IN AH!  Other sims don't matter.

"Same with fighter pilots in AH.....and?"
and... if you get in a dogfight with a fighter, you had better hope that Ypsilon or ons or mooj (the list goes on) aint in the other fighter.
and... if you attack a bomber, you had better hope that Mitsu or Cavemanj or rollo (the list goes on) aint in the buff.

"Gee your good m8! Must have learned how to take out the "Klingon Battlecruisers!"
And so have countless others who took the time to learn how to attack them.
Call them (buffs) what you want, but they have K/D ratios between .73 and .48.

"I only made the post after asking a few questions from other pilots in the game.
Thanks for assuming that I am only trying to make things easier for me...."
And if it's easier for you, who is it harder for?
...the buff driver.  He already has a hard enough job.  

"You know its amazing that only a few people have agreed with my post which is fine. Most people disagree and are fairly content with how the game is set up now. Hey I'm not the only one flying here and that's why we have a bulliten board. To discuss things about AH that concern us and give feedback to the developers. Of all the people who have responded eskimo you are the only one who's acted like a jerk. You make alot of assumption's about me personnally off a few lines of text in a discussion forum."


Believe it or not Ketten, each one of your post sounds arrogant and one sided.  

eskimo

[KetteJG26]

"One sided and arrogant"...

And yours don't eskimo?
Hey m8...visit the library and check the info I posted if you think its wrong and dispute it.

[eskimo]

I have been flying fighters and buffs in AH since day 1 of Beta Tour 1.  I look at this game from the perspective of a fighter and a bomber pilot.  How is that one sided?

You seem to understand all about this particular game after flying fighters in it for 2 whole weeks.

You also keep ignoring several of my questions.

eskimo

[eskimo]

Ketten;
Your original post says basically 2 things.

#1.  It's really hard for a moving ariel target to hit another moving ariel target for a variety of reasons.

          We know this ketten.  Most of the regulars in this sim have a good understanding of the balistic issues that you brought up. It's pretty basic stuff.  You write as if you expect the readers to know nothing about ballistics and figher-bomber attack tactics.  Dude, most of the people in this sim are WWII aviation buffs.  

"Its called Aerodynamic Drag".  Thanks for letting us know this, Ketten, but most of the pilots in this sim are well educated.  Most have had high school or college physics (or both).

But the truth is, as far as gunnery goes, a lot of bullets collided with a lot of airplanes in WWII.  It happens a lot in this sim also.

         Some of what you brought up is irrelevant to the issue of ARIEL gunnery.  Barrel flex from a riffleman's riffle?  So what?  A little spread can be good in a 50 Cal. MG, especially in ariel gunnery.
                    
Some of your stuff is just plain wrong;

"That's why you didn't attack bombers from the side..just about impossible to hit."

What makes you think this?  
One of my father in law's jobs in WWII was flying the RP-63.
This was an armor plated P-63 that was used to make mock attacks on B-17's for training purposes.  The B-17 gunners would shoot powdered lead/bakalite 30 Cal. Fragible bullets at the RP-63s.  The RP-63 had strike sensors that would light a light in the spinner, indicating a hit.

He often made side attacks on the bombers.  He was instructed to do this because it was a typical German tactic.  

The 3-9 attack is a well known and effective bomber attack tactic.  It gives the fighter a fair shot, and the bomber gunner a lousy one.
I use it in AH whenever I get a chance.

Point #2 from your post;

Bomber gunners greatly over-claimed kills on ONE mission.

So...  What.

The RELEVANT  truth is,
A lot German fighters shot down a lot of U.S. bombers.
And... a lot of U.S. bombers shot down a lot of German fighters.

U.S. bomber crews and German fighter pilot greatly feared each other.

This is my opinion.  
It is not from reading only 2 books, but from reading a small library of books and articles on the subject since childhood.   And from talking to other hobby/historians who have also studied the subject in-depth.  And from testing what I have learned in flight sims. And from talking to a handful of people who were actually there.

eskimo

P.S.
My father in law said that he always knew when one of the instructors was manning the guns because they would always nail him, regardless of the attack.  The instructors had a lot of experience, and were good.  
So are a lot of buff gunners in AH.
The unrealistic problem that you are facing is that MANY experienced gunners in this sim have far more experience than WWII gunners ever did.  As a result, they are damn good shots.

[SKurj]

Ketten..

Fly a buff, any your choice, and I'll attack ya (and I suck vz buffs in a fighter)
Give me 3 tries, we'll see who wins.
Then perhaps ask Eskimo to do the same thing.

Just look at the bomber stats man!!  In a buff its a very rare occurence that you get to rtb.
Make buffing even more fatal, and we won't see any.

SKurj

Leave the bombers alone

[LJK Raubvogel]

Kette, give it time. Most buffs have a dead zone their guns can't cover. Learn it on each buff, and avoid hot spots.

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps