Why are they leaving?

[Shifty]

IMO the largest road block to this is that payers can choose from arenas with limited choices, and two arenas with all choices availible.  It's a no brainer that everyone will go where all choices are availible (open planeset).  I have said since the week of the arena splits that I don't see how the concept of players finding a "home arena" is possible with unique arena setups along side the same old open plane set arenas.

I agree.

[FlyinFin]

 While I have read most of the thread I don't think any of the "so called" reasons for quiting are problems in the arena.
I think some of the games pilots either get lazy {I want a quick fight types} or just lose intrest in the game. I don't see as many old guys as I used to, but there still here. What is new, or was is the voice comms. With voice you can
imagine a whole new perspective on the pilot you have never met.

Nothing has changed!
Got me thinking and I went off on the internets <G> looking for 1 thing and I found something else usual...  but I thought I would share.
This is an article from 1997 and an interview w/the our 4thFG CO until a few months ago.. Boozer.

Cheating In Air Warrior..?

Allegations of cheating by some of RR1's top scoring pilots is being whispered and occasionally shouted by many Air Warriors in RR1 ETO. Controversy is not uncommon in RR1 ETO. Past incidents of "top scorers" fragging opponents in order to keep a lead on the kill board are common knowledge amongst AW pilots. The latest series of allegations are being leveled against RR1's most notorious point grabbers. Giving vent to many longtime animosities held by veteran players against "point dweebs".

Sources have revealed that the current allegations focus on three or more individuals that are well known in RR1 as longtime point hounds. These individuals are being accused of setting up patsy kills to pad their scores. These revelations center on the "fact" that they are having friends run enemy accounts which the point hounds continually kill or are running two computers at the same time to allow the point hounds primary account to gain points by vulching themselves.

Vulching is always a controversial topic in Air Warrior. Many pilots defend the practice of killing those dweebs who are "dumb" enough to take off from airfields that are CAPped by enemy aircraft; however, no pilots are defending the practice of Vulching one's self or a friend to gain points. A few pilots in RR1 have built a reputation as vulchers with witty macros to celebrate the vulch and unlike the point hounds are respected members of RR1. Vulching is an effective method of gaining points in that it places the vulcher at very little risk by coming into a fight with superior energy over the opponent who is just taking off. Most point hounds are notorious for their vulching and limited flight area centering around a82/b85; however, these current allegations also focus on recent defectors in both B-Land and C-Land as well as the VOD crowd  .

Air Warrior is a community with a set of standards which focus on "fair play". Pilots either choose to follow or reject the standards. The arenas are essentially self-policing with some pilots setting examples and urging others to follow a respectable path. The standards are largely a set of customs that are not always followed, but generally are accepted (ie. not interfering in arranged fights, etc.). Often pilots allow others that they commonly fight who are low on ammo, fuel, or badly damaged to RTB. This is a development of courtesy that is largely dependent upon the pilots involved and when done the pilot expects the same courtesy to be extended to them by their opposition. There is a sense that these three pilots have violated the sense of "fair play" which is so necessary for the enjoyment of the game. Cheating ruins the game for everyone involved, even those that do not fly for points. A sense of irritation is felt by many regulars in RR1 as to this alleged cheating; cheaters are not liked and many are not hesitating to use the word Cheat in terming these individuals alleged actions.

This controversy continues another long-running debate over the pursuit of points. A camp of pilots, usually veteran Air Warriors, rail against the usage of points as a measure of pilot excellence. In the opposition, is a group of mostly new pilots and a few veteran pilots that view score in Air Warrior as analogous to runs in baseball; they see pilot score as something of which to be proud. A new subset of this argument is developing over the issue of Kill/Death ratio. A long running counter claim to the points crowd was that a good K/D ratio is a much better indicator of a pilot than simply points because points totals can be raised with hours and hours of play. "Points Dweeb" has been the long running title of derision for those that worship points and now "K/D Dweeb" is being used in much the same way. K/D dweebs focus so much on this that they become so overly cautious as to refuse to engage unless the terms are so heavily in their advantage and refuse to engage on equal terms. Many K/D dweebs are becoming notorious for giving new meaning to the term alt monkey.

The allegations of cheating by point hounds give further proof to the arguments against the usage of points as a measure of pilot ability. The environment in RR1, centered so heavily on respect between pilots, will suffer from these allegations; unfortunately, the level of macro usage, arrogance, and all around dweeb-ery necessitate that all Air Warriors attempt to set a better example or face having all of the fun squeezed from the game. It is incumbent upon the pilots in RR1 ETO to make known to all that they will not tolerate cheating or any incarnation of dweeb-ery and this current situation is certainly providing the opportunity.

[FlyinFin]

In this section, we got the chance to talk to a real AW vet. Boozer is an veteran pilot who has been playing since DOS days. He was generous enough to give us a few minutes out of his flight time for this interview. The interview was setup by Vagabond. The interview was conducted by Vagabond and Pace
. FB: How long have you been playing AW?
Boozer: Five years.
FB: That's back in the DOS days eh?
Boozer: Yeah, I saw a cool add in Computer Gaming for it on Genie. Signed on the next day.
FB: (Laughing) How does the quality of pilots compare from then to now in general?
Boozer: Well half of them still play, but the talent has definitely been watered down with the numbers that fly today.
FB: And I'm sure the talk has increased greatly.
Boozer: The "chatter" you mean?
FB: The "I'm the best", "No one can beat me" stuff.
Boozer: Yes, it's a neat thing for new guys and the kids that play
FB: Have you flown FR since day 1, or did you start somewhere else?
Boozer: Well, I flew 4 days in what was "half-time" back when I signed on. Full realism was still in beta, and, after I found it, I made it home.
FB: What are your "Planes of choice"?
Boozer: I prefer the Boom & Zoom planes, P-51, F4U, P-47...Well actually American BnZ’ers. Don't care much for the FW.
FB: Have any particular memorable moments?
Boozer: Quite a few. There’s a few: Training under Grok, Flying a P-47 in the Eagle day 2 scenario with a Jug and getting 4 kills, Bigweek, and of course winging Moggy in Spitfires in a scenario.
FB: Speaking of Bigweek... How do you feel about AWII, as it compares to AW for Windows?
Boozer: Fantastic and Enormous, not much of a front-end deal, but the scenario terrain is wonderful, you can fly through the Eiffel Tower
FB: (Laughing)
Boozer: The thing is BIG and will make for some great events.
FB: It seems like Moggy is one of your major rivals... any others?
Boozer: Rival? (laughs), I don't rate.You want names of the same class of pilot? FB: Sure.
Boozer: HeeBee, Merch, Soup the dweeb, Mute, Popeye, Dragon, off the top of my head. There's another class just above us. Premier pilots are Ketchup, Stiletto, Rocketman, Twist, Moggy, and Sharkbait, just to name a few.
FB: Boozer...Any feelings towards squadrons, as a whole ?
Boozer: Squads are a great way to make good friends. People you really get attached to, even though you've never even seen them.
Boozer: Some of whom I would consider my "best pals" are online characters.
FB: Have you ever been in, or are you currently in a squadron?
Boozer: Yes, A longstanding group. The 4th Fighter Group, we emulate the WWII group out of Debden.
FB: What, in your opinion, makes a good pilot? Is there one skill that stands above the others?
Boozer: It's called "situational awareness" that ability to size up the situation and make your move accordingly. That's a broad skill that encompasses the entire arena down to your 2k private space. FB: What is the main thing new players need to work on?
Boozer: Brand new? Takeoff, landing, learning how his particular plane can perform. What you can and cannot do in that Yak, and then the standard maneuvers, yoyo's, loops, Immelmans, Split-S’.
FB: On the same subject, what is a good plane for a "Newbie" to start with?
Boozer: Depends on the arena they're in, but I’d have to say a Spitfire or 109 for ETO an the F6F for the PTO. Zero's are fun in the Pac, but a newbie will die fast.
FB: So are there any special tactics or advice you'd like to share that apply to the general populace of AW?
Boozer: You want secrets I've spent 5 years learning?!?
FB: Yes, but we'll settle for general advice.
Boozer: (Laughing) Get good control of your plane and know the condition of the fight. Never fly into battle climbing so hard that it's slowing you down. ALWAYS check behind you, every 15 seconds, check 6.
FB: How do you feel about AOL's dropping of AW4W and replacing it with AW2, which will be charged hourly?
Boozer: Well, you're asking an old "elite" guy that the AOL kids whine about. Me, I've used my regular AW budget to buy a top of the line computer. So, for me AOL's early marketing mistake was my gain.I dont expect any company to give anything away free, but they could be more forthcoming for the players.
FB: One more question before we let you go... Where did the handle come from?
Boozer: (Laughing), Wifey got mad one night and called me that long ago.
FB: (Laughing) Thanks for your time.
Boozer: Sure.
Furball Magazine would like to thank Boozer for taking the time to share some of his experience and his past with us.[F]

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/4089/issues.html

Interesting,
Fin

[doc1kelley]

Over-reaction first and foremost.

Video Games come and go, that's just how it is. People that have been playing for 10+ years have the right to find something else for entertainment. That is the nature of the beast.

And your point of view is what is common and is missing the point some of the old timers are leaving.  Back in the day.... 1995-present online was about the community and not the game itself.  I started in AW DOS but didn't have the funds to play onine on Genie but did when it went AW4W (windows) on AOL and a few other platforms, we even eventually had Mac platform players with us PC players.  The community eventually got so big that the main message BBS was outside of the company and the BigWeek BBS was spawned and is still up today as far as I know.  To us in the day... AW and now AH is not just a video game and those that treat it like it is are why there are so many of the old timers leaving!

All the Best...

    Jay
 awDoc1

[FlyinFin]

BigWeek BBS

Thanx Doc u reminded me what I was looking for in the 1st place   

[Murdr]

From Bozers article

Air Warrior is a community with a set of standards which focus on "fair play". Pilots either choose to follow or reject the standards. The arenas are essentially self-policing with some pilots setting examples and urging others to follow a respectable path. The standards are largely a set of customs that are not always followed, but generally are accepted (ie. not interfering in arranged fights, etc.). Often pilots allow others that they commonly fight who are low on ammo, fuel, or badly damaged to RTB. This is a development of courtesy that is largely dependent upon the pilots involved and when done the pilot expects the same courtesy to be extended to them by their opposition.

There is an item that has been cited during this discussion.  This is what is different in that the arena with too much anonymity has no community standards.

[BaldEagl]

Boozer: Rival? (laughs), I don't rate.You want names of the same class of pilot? FB: Sure.
Boozer: HeeBee, Merch, Soup the dweeb, Mute, Popeye, Dragon, off the top of my head. There's another class just above us. Premier pilots are Ketchup, Stiletto, Rocketman, Twist, Moggy, and Sharkbait, just to name a few.Fin

lol... Popeye was in my squad for a long time.  There was someone else in my squad I can't remember his handle but it started with a Q... he was consistantly the best of all of us.

Moggy used to kick my a@@ although I did win on rare occasions.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

[Murdr]

Aces High suffers from a peculiar malady in that the community actively discourages squadron level operations.

I disagree.  Or at least I disagree for my part.  HTC has defined a squadron as 32 players.  Many players have expanded on that definition to include as many wings of 32 that they can support.  So we are no longer talking about squadron level operations.  Instead we are talking about air wing level operations.  This is fun in moderation, but it can have a negative impact on everyone elses gameplay when taken to the extreme.  Yes there is a backlash over this issue.  But I believe personally that squadron operations as defined by HTC is not discouraged.

1 v 1 is the basic level of aerial combat. It is not the highest level of skill. Competence in the 1 v 1 is only the starting point. The highest level of achievement in aerial combat is competence in the many versus many environment, especially when there is a mission goal to be performed.

I agree with this.  But the observations seem to point to the idea of too many skiping past that basic competence level, and going straight to formations of equally incompetents duking it out or avoiding each other all together.

[FlyinFin]

lol... Popeye was in my squad for a long time.  There was someone else in my squad I can't remember his handle but it started with a Q... he was consistantly the best of all of us.

Moggy used to kick my a@@ although I did win on rare occasions.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

During this period of time specifically Our sqd 168th NightStalkers were struggling with the move to AW2 being played in a different place, was the end of that sqd   The names that popped for me are Mutonius of course he is still in the 4th. and Merch , that sucker could fly a FW better than any 1 at the time and RM in his f4u lookout and StinkBait hehe SB. Shaky was still in the sqd till it reformed recently.
I did not join the 4th until AH.

4th<----noob,

Fin

[detch01]

IMO the largest road block to this is that payers can choose from arenas with limited choices, and two arenas with all choices availible.  It's a no brainer that everyone will go where all choices are availible (open planeset).  I have said since the week of the arena splits that I don't see how the concept of players finding a "home arena" is possible with unique arena setups along side the same old open plane set arenas.

I agree that the vast majority of players will gravitate to the full planeset arenas - that's pretty much what we see now with the blue and orange arenas. Given the choice they'll also go where the most people are. That pretty much means the early and mid war arenas will never be anything but side shows to the full planeset arenas, so I don't really see them being a block to players finding a home arena.

Cheers,
asw

[Murdr]

I agree that the vast majority of players will gravitate to the full planeset arenas - that's pretty much what we see now with the blue and orange arenas. Given the choice they'll also go where the most people are. That pretty much means the early and mid war arenas will never be anything but side shows to the full planeset arenas, so I don't really see them being a block to players finding a home arena.

Cheers,
asw

Change the word "block" to "undermine" if that communicates the point I was getting at any better.  I re-read the reply and still see all of the components there.  If you're in a squad and "the vast majority of players will gravitate to the full planeset arenas" your home is probably where they go.  Like the majority, they are probably in the LW with the prefered terrain up.  If you have limited play time, the "side show" arenas with very low numbers might not seem like a good option.

[FireDrgn]

What game play specifically?  There is hardlyany REAL ACM combat for the most part in the AH..... Taking bases and vulching gets old quick........Now days you up and your lucky if you get any  FIGHT at all.....  Your either in the horde which leads to gang'in.... or your not the horde and your getting ganged....  There is no real  fight or challenge...

Which leads to just crappy players with no skill....YOu never get into a fight more than 2 turns with out getting picked.... So players never learn any other ACM  just HO and pick its all they know.....

They dont even know simple basic moves Like... Immelman beats flat turn..... flat turn beats split S

The two biggest problems in AH have to do with the "players" not maps or whatever else.........

1.  ask before you leap into someone else fight...  Show just a little respect for your fellow player......geeeezeee just a little...........

2.  The most prolific mouths on the BBS are the biggest offenders of picking this game has to offer....  it does'nt matter if the player your fighing is 1 turn from kicking your butt they pick u any ways.... They have the least respect in the air of any of the players.


How do u expect a player to get any better when your picking them in the middle of a fight with someone else...... You cant all you can expect is them to come back with a faster plane.. and ho then run.... cause that what you just taught them....Acm dont work in here cause im going to pick you anyways.....

So game play slowly spirals down hill untill the guys with respect just leave...............

[1Boner]

JUST  follow em.

when i was with the HG, and we used to fly in EW, there was one other main squadron in there. sometimes they stayed and fought....others they went to an undefended base. we simply followed them to their new target. always made for good fight...both in the air and on the ground.

BINGO!!!

[bj229r]

What's right or wrong with the game is far from graphic quality, flight models, etc. Guys who have been at it since Aw1 and the mid-nineties who get disgusted and quit owe it to current game-play, and the ever-increasing hording-"Quake High" mentality that Humble so accurately summarized. I'm trying to think of what AH could change in the big picture that would discourage folks from looking for the biggest friendly dar-bar (and preferably DARNED little red bars) and flying there, hoping to be one of 9 guys trying to out-ho the others for a kill on a spit I, but nuthin comes to mind. I stay because I like hanging out with my buddies as sort of a virtual bowling night, as well as the hope that my middling skills will somehow rocket upward after 14-odd years, perHAPS even enough to beat one of those 80th bastids in their 2-engine thingies

[1Boner]

but no more searching the map for bases flashing in the most isolated corners of the map.

Why? Its part of the game.

Keeps you on your toes, and if you notice it soon enough, POOF!!, great fight ensues.