Author Topic: PSU  (Read 731 times)

Offline 1701E

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1889
      • VBF-18 Bearcats
PSU
« on: January 13, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
Currently I am looking for a new PSU.  Most likely I won't be getting it til about March, but I figure they can only get cheaper over time, and if worse comes to it I ask again in March.

I am looking to replace my 30$ PSU as it is off-brand and is not the most powerful.  I have to get one that is 5.5" (144mm) or smaller in depth to make it worth it; max supported is actually 5.9".  I an looking for one that can power a GeForce 9800GTX if at all possible (Currently using a 7900GS).  Also if possible I would like Modular.  I will put a pic in to show where wires would be best placed coming out of the PSU to allow maximum room.  Aside from the 5.5-5.9" depth restriction it is standard sizes for ATX PSU.

This is the room I have to work with on the top level of case (Also HDD is now next to the PSU), my good pics seem to have disappeared on Mediafire.  PSU fan is now on bottom, and the PSU is 5.9" long.

As seen the Wires would be best coming out so they come into that big empty space next to (not overlapping) the Optical drive.

So anyone know a good PSU that fits this?  Sorry I'm picky, but this new case, as sweet as it is, is a tiny bit small on PSU space.
And the GPU I asked about in December, I never got due to some financial issues, and plan to get a better one after a PSU upgrade anyways.
ID: Xcelsior
R.I.P. Fallen Friends & Family

"The only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed"

Offline drdeathx

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
      • [URL=http://s435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/AAdeath/?action=view&current=woodland-critters-christmas-1024x76.jpg][IMG]http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq77/AAdeath/th_woodland-critters-christmas-1024x76.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Re: PSU
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 01:23:45 AM »
NEW PSU = NEW CPU + NEW MOTHERBOARD + NEW CASE.... Just kidding. Post brand and model of computer if you cannot post pic.
See Rule #6

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: PSU
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 03:30:31 AM »
Some good advice to consider when selecting a new PSU: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html

-C+
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 03:36:39 AM by Charge »
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline SD67

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3218
Re: PSU
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 05:11:09 AM »
Modular while cool looking is not a great idea since it adds another failure point into the line.
9GIAP VVS RKKA
You're under arrest for violation of the Government knows best act!
Fabricati diem, punc
Absinthe makes the Tart grow fonder

Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
Re: PSU
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 05:59:40 AM »
Modular while cool looking is not a great idea since it adds another failure point into the line.

Failure point?  Can you please explain this to me. I am a system builder by trade and an overclocker (world ranked) and I have been using modular since then came out.  They increase airflow thru the case (heat is the biggest enemy of a computer) since your only using the needed cables.  The cabling attaches to a PSU securely same way the power cables connect to the MB in most cases (Tagan and a few others are exceptions).  Every high end builder, boutique system builder, pick your parts builders I know prefer and charge extra (along with the PSU makers) for using Modular.

With over 1800 systems built with modular PSU's and not one failure due to PSU (lots of MB's) please please tell me about failure points.

As for the poster, need system maker or case specs to actually recommend a PSU

Offline SD67

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3218
Re: PSU
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 06:18:55 AM »
The failure point is in the connector.
Every mechanical link is a potential failure point, where the contact can become contaminated and/or corroded creating high resistance and low voltage transfers (even a few mV can have a significant effect) or higher than intended loads.
Yes you can get gold plated connectors, but even they are not immune to contamination.
It's pretty easy to tie off unused cables and place them in an area that does not impede airflow.
9GIAP VVS RKKA
You're under arrest for violation of the Government knows best act!
Fabricati diem, punc
Absinthe makes the Tart grow fonder

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: PSU
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 06:29:04 AM »
SD67 is on track.  As a EE, I can tell you that the cheap connectors used in those modular supplies are a source for noise (via capacitance) to be introduced into the computer circuits. 

The ripple introduced is bad enough that it will serve to shorten the life of various components in the system.  Of course, that could still mean years, or months.  The levels of noise will vary.  The levels of damage will vary.  The ripple also introduces more unwanted heat into the system, as the components have to deal with the ripple, which is done by dissipation of the excess current as heat.  These properties get more and more exaggerated over time due to the connectors resistance increasing through the long term effects of capacitance discharge.

If you hooked up a good quality scope today, then again in 6 months, then again in another 6 months, you would see how those cheap connectors are causing potential damage to your computer.

If the power supply companies used a high quality gasless connector, such as a Euro-style connector, it would be a non-issue, but the supplies would cost quite a bit more money.  It is a bit ironic.  As those connectors get worse, the power supply will have to compensate by generating more power, which causes the effects of those connectors to get worse, which causes the supply to generate more power,..and so on.

These effects are a known quantity and have been known for over 30 years.  It is the reason there are high quality gasless connectors on the market.

While I am not crazy about the bundle of cables left over, they can be dressed completely out of the way.  It really depends on the computer case design.  I had no problems dressing the cables out of the way in my computer.  Everything runs nice and cool.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 06:38:15 AM by Skuzzy »
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline 1701E

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1889
      • VBF-18 Bearcats
Re: PSU
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 06:53:29 AM »
Well modular or no, I am using an Aerocool M40 Cube case.
If need be I have some extra room for cables.

As I now notice that MediaFire doesn't like me as it deleted all my files I had, including the original hosted image.

The Case looks like this:

The HDD cage is not installed in the same spot on mine due to it hits my GPU/PSU:




Lower Level:  Cooling consists of 1x 120mm intake and 2x 80mm fans.


Amazingly it Fits PSU sizes of standard ATX aside from the 144mm limitation in Depth.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 07:24:20 AM by 1701E »
ID: Xcelsior
R.I.P. Fallen Friends & Family

"The only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed"

Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
Re: PSU
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 07:16:20 AM »
The failure point is in the connector.
Every mechanical link is a potential failure point, where the contact can become contaminated and/or corroded creating high resistance and low voltage transfers (even a few mV can have a significant effect) or higher than intended loads.
Yes you can get gold plated connectors, but even they are not immune to contamination.
It's pretty easy to tie off unused cables and place them in an area that does not impede airflow.
SD67 is on track.  As a EE, I can tell you that the cheap connectors used in those modular supplies are a source for noise (via capacitance) to be introduced into the computer circuits. 

The ripple introduced is bad enough that it will serve to shorten the life of various components in the system.  Of course, that could still mean years, or months.  The levels of noise will vary.  The levels of damage will vary.  The ripple also introduces more unwanted heat into the system, as the components have to deal with the ripple, which is done by dissipation of the excess current as heat.  These properties get more and more exaggerated over time due to the connectors resistance increasing through the long term effects of capacitance discharge.

If you hooked up a good quality scope today, then again in 6 months, then again in another 6 months, you would see how those cheap connectors are causing potential damage to your computer.

If the power supply companies used a high quality gasless connector, such as a Euro-style connector, it would be a non-issue, but the supplies would cost quite a bit more money.  It is a bit ironic.  As those connectors get worse, the power supply will have to compensate by generating more power, which causes the effects of those connectors to get worse, which causes the supply to generate more power,..and so on.

These effects are a known quantity and have been known for over 30 years.  It is the reason there are high quality gasless connectors on the market.

While I am not crazy about the bundle of cables left over, they can be dressed completely out of the way.  It really depends on the computer case design.  I had no problems dressing the cables out of the way in my computer.  Everything runs nice and cool.
Now the same connectors are used at the other end of the PSU to the components, yes I agree using modular will have dbl the amount of connectors (one at each end) but again (Yes Skuzzy I agree with the meters loss over time) the amount of loss voltage is so small, their will be no visible effect on the components or system overall.  IMHO I think the advantages out weigh the disadvantages

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: PSU
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
It is not the voltage loss that is an issue really.  It is the noise/ripple introduced into the power feed that is the primary issue with the connectors.

You are free to have your own opinion about this, but the long term effects of the connectors being used is quantifiable and documented.

I am sure you can find public papers written on this topic.  In a previous life, I qualified power supplies for the company I worked for.  I learned more than I wanted to know about power supplies.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 08:20:58 AM by Skuzzy »
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline 1701E

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1889
      • VBF-18 Bearcats
Re: PSU
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2009, 12:23:09 PM »
Hey now you two, see rule #2 :D .
Looks like I'll get normal, non-modular.  Any ideas for a good one 144mm or less deep?
ID: Xcelsior
R.I.P. Fallen Friends & Family

"The only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed"

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: PSU
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 02:18:22 PM »
Ahhhhh 1701e,..the title is simply "PSU".  I am pretty sure the discussion was about power supplies. :)
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline 1701E

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1889
      • VBF-18 Bearcats
Re: PSU
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2009, 03:39:43 PM »
Mr.technicality strikes a hard blow. :D

Anyways I was looking at two PSUs that fit and have good power ratings, but I want to get a good brand.

I am looking at a 550Watt Rosewill PSU (2x 12V rails each at 18A) 60$
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182030

-Or-

A 550Watt Corsair (41A on single 12V rail) 80$ after Mail-in rebate.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004

Which would be better, or is there an even better one?  Hard to look since NE hates listing the sizes of these.
ID: Xcelsior
R.I.P. Fallen Friends & Family

"The only ones who should kill are those prepared to be killed"

Offline Denholm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9667
      • No. 603 Squadron
Re: PSU
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2009, 04:03:04 PM »
I'd drop the thought on the Rosewill:

BFG is sourcing the power supply from the same Chinese company that many others are using, including Antec, Rosewill, and a barrage of others.

I would not trust that supply.  The Chinese company making all those supplies are using very cheap capacitors.  It might last a year in regular use, but when it goes, it will probably take everything else with it.
Get your Daily Dose of Flame!
FlameThink.com
No. 603 Squadron... Visit us on the web, if you dare.

Drug addicts are always disappointed after eating Pot Pies.

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: PSU
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2009, 04:54:40 PM »
Well, Corsair does not actually make thier supplies either, but the Rosewill one is a straight-up OEM supply with their name on it.  I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com