Defiance

[texasmom]

Heard an interview of the guy who wrote the book -- said he wasn't even aware of the story till he was researching what eventually turned into Schindler's List. Called up a source, told him he was researching the story of Schindler's saving 300 Jews -- and the source (who turned out to be one of the brothers in THIS story) said something like "300? Bah! How'd you like to hear about people who saved 3 THOUSAND??"

Interesting. I think I'd like to read the book.

[Angus]

I think Schindler actually passed the 1000, roughly 1200 if I recall right.
The Warshaw uprising was twice, ending in a complete rubble,  -it was the worst beaten city of WW2.
Getting back to the Russians Partisans, one thing is interesting. There were lots of soldiers among them.
The Germans worked on a plan called "Kesselshlacht" or "Cauldron Battle". That meant encirclin (passing) big pockets of enemy forces very fast, cutting their supplies and communications and then anihilating them. This worked well in Poland, they were softer in W-Europe, and completely brutal in the USSR. But Russia was too big for that to succeed, and big areas could not be covered with panzered-up forces. They couldn't even hold all their captives (which counted millions) so there was a lot of escapees about.
One big area they could not master with their mechanized force were the Priphet marshes (SP?) where the lack of roads and rails made warfare a nightmare for the Wehrmacht.
It was their undoing.
My guess at Russian partisans under arms is by some millions...perhaps. And they were a constant menace to the Germans.
I am not sure how the Red army tackled with them or co-operated, - they tended to be very brutal on those who "had surrendered" or been caught.
Always good to look at a half-forgotten story though. After all, WW2 was a very expensive tragety, and we should use that "investment" to learn enough to avoid repetition.

[cpxxx]

You know thinking about it, off thread I think but worth a thought. The Nazis made an unholy mess of their conquests. Particularly in the east. They were so obsessed wiping out all the 'sub-humans'. All that time and resources and manpower was used up on the vendetta against not only the Jews but Slavs in general. The Jews were only the first on the list. They fully intended to wipe most of the Poles and other when the time came. If instead they had harnessed all those resources and people against Stalin's Russia, things may have been quite different. It was mostly Hitler of course. Probably the biggest single factor in the defeat of the Nazis was his meddling. It was said somewhere the Hitler was the single biggest asset to the Allied cause.

[Anaxogoras]

You know thinking about it, off thread I think but worth a thought. The Nazis made an unholy mess of their conquests. Particularly in the east. They were so obsessed wiping out all the 'sub-humans'. All that time and resources and manpower was used up on the vendetta against not only the Jews but Slavs in general. The Jews were only the first on the list. They fully intended to wipe most of the Poles and other when the time came. If instead they had harnessed all those resources and people against Stalin's Russia, things may have been quite different. It was mostly Hitler of course. Probably the biggest single factor in the defeat of the Nazis was his meddling. It was said somewhere the Hitler was the single biggest asset to the Allied cause.

I wouldn't have believed this before I read up on the subject, but it's true that extermination of the Jews was a greater priority than winning the war.  Productive factories employing Jews were frequently liquidated by the SS.  The task of the einsatzgruppen was made easier by the fact that many old Ukrainians and other eastern Europeans, including Jews, remembered WW1 and assumed the Germans were there to liberate them a second time from Russian domination.  With their control and filtering of all information, the communists did little to warn the Jews of the new political reality in Germany, and when they did give warning it was far too late.

[Angus]

The Einsatzgruppen had quite some "contribution". They lead to incredible hate and resistance that would last beyond the last bullet.
Their work also turned men in power within the Reich against the Reich,  -a good example is Canaris, who's connection with the Brits is yet not completely unveiled.
And this idea, annihilating armies, slowed down the German advance. That alone was their undoing in Russia in 1941...maybe.
I have seen many quotes from LW pilots at the eastern front, scratching their head about the Russians being so full of hate. Well, they had their bunkers and their missions, - not everybody could witness what the Einsatztruppen were up to.
Actually started in Poland in 1939, and even the Brits got some taste of it in France. (small scale).
The more agressive SS forces would shoot and then ask, - Student, the commander of the Parachute forces of the Wehrmacht was shot through the head by an SS officer in France in 1940, but survived...

[Fugita]

Just saw this today. It's good, just not quite what I had expected. I would have to recommend it though. It seems to be more of an introspective of the different thought processes. The comment in an earlier post by Anaxogoras was basically addressed in the movie. I would have to say that if this is how they were in that time, the way some were reflected in the movie, I'm stupified. Some of them had this "oh well, here we go again" attitude. Definately a movie to viewed by the masses. 

[Ack-Ack]

I have seen many quotes from LW pilots at the eastern front, scratching their head about the Russians being so full of hate.

In the Blonde Knight, Erich Hartmann describes two instances about a captured Soviet pilot and what he witnessed happened to a downed German pilot.  He wrote about how the German pilots would go out and 'recover' the downed Soviet pilots and take them to their base and basically treat the Soviet pilot like a visiting friend.  It was during one of these episodes that the Germans learned how to keep their engines from freezing during the cold Soviet winter and how they were able to gather so much information and intelligence from the down pilots which were usually more than willing to 'spill the beans'.  In stark contrast was the story he told of watching a German pilot from another unit make a forced landing and then watching the Soviet plane that shot him down land near the downed German plane and exiting out of his plane and running to the German plane where the German pilot was climbing out of the cockpit.  Hartmann at that point thought the Soviet pilot was going to just capture the German pilot but instead watched in horror as the Soviet pilot apparently picked something up from the ground and started to beat the German pilot to death as he was trying to get out of the cockpit.  And just like you mentioned, was shocked at the level of hatred.


ack-ack

[cpxxx]

I'm shocked that the Germans were shocked at the level of hatred. After all if you invade another country, lay waste to it, kill men, women and children you can't really be surprised when the people of that country take it personally. In truth though, Soviet citizens were indoctrinated to hate the Nazis and saw all Germans that way. In it's own way the Soviet regime was as nasty and as vicious as the Nazis. They way they treated their own people was as a bad as their enemies.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm shocked that the Germans were shocked at the level of hatred. After all if you invade another country, lay waste to it, kill men, women and children you can't really be surprised when the people of that country take it personally. In truth though, Soviet citizens were indoctrinated to hate the Nazis and saw all Germans that way. In it's own way the Soviet regime was as nasty and as vicious as the Nazis. They way they treated their own people was as a bad as their enemies.

Would you be shocked if we told you that many Germans didn't know about the Einsatzgruppen?  Especially if they entered the war in late '42 or in '43, like Hartmann, almost all the evidence would be buried.  In the memoir The Forgotten Soldier, the naive 16 year old Alsatian joins up in late '42, notices an empty ghetto, but doesn't put two and two together.  Again, many east Europeans did welcome the Germans as liberators, at first...Ukrainians, Belorussians, Estonians, etc.  Remember, this was a war to rid the world of communism and the United States was going to switch sides to fight alongside the Wehrmacht.