Author Topic: All hail...  (Read 7805 times)

Offline FALCONWING

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2009, 11:21:49 AM »
Well lets start with everyone re-reading animls post in the "why they are leaving thread".  Probably the best post I have read in a while.  

Then a few comments:

1.  The MA HAS become a squad based arena since the introduction of large maps and Numbers...undeniable...I always have 14-15 guys in the nighttime hours to call to help defend a noe or gv assault.  AND IT IS FUN!!! Thats the benefit in being in a squad that WORKS TOGETHER!  If Scotch insists on being in a squad that only fields 1-2 players at a time...then he may need to a) change squads or b) not oppose missions if it causes him to lose sleep.

2.  In both those screenshots Scotch posted for the planes and gvs shown to be available then  eny was low.  So it begs the question where the other members of that country were....perhaps vulching/ganging another base???  Nice to post isolated screenshots...by my count there were an equal number of countrymen not caring enough to up...and please...how does a gv assault that large reach a base without anyone investigating????  embarrassing really...

3.  Who gives a crap really???  I mean besides wmlute, fugitive and a handful of others who always jump in these threads to tell others how to have fun???  Again, if HTC would put a few out of their misery...these threads would end.

4.  There are 900+ folks on in the prime hours...my crazy guess is they are having fun...the maps have hundreds of bases...can these incessant posters really not find anyone on dar to "have fun" with???  Is their only fun controlling everyone's gameplay???  Why should a furballer even give a crap if a few bases drop??? Seriously...gut check guys...quit griefing others and find a way to have fun or leave...

5.  If there WAS this huge number of guys who only want "the art of dogfighting" to exist why is the AvA unpopulated??  In AW these "more serious" guys played in Full Realism.  They had their own community...  Of course they constantly reminded the Relaxed Realism players how they took the game much more seriously then the rest of us (stalls, yank n bank etc)  But at least they formed their own community within the community and found a way to have fun.

If you really hate noe's then here are a few tips for the "slower" folks:

1.  A base is flashing without a dar showing......hmmmmmm
2.  The enemy in flight is high but dar bars showing dont add up.....hmmmm
3.  An noe occurred about 5 minutes ago......hmmmm
4.  There are enemy squads on that like running noe's....hmmmm
5.  There are a lot of guys on roster in a squad known for base taking.....hmmm

Too be fair I will help the NOE guys who dont like being "picked" by half these posters:

here are situations to AVOID...run an NOE instead.....

1.  There is a 15k niki with wingmen/escorts hovering off your base and Wmlute is on.
2.  There is a 15k tempest hanging above the furball and Zazen is pontificating.
3.   Your base ack is down and vh is ded and F4U-1c's and 190D9's are hovering 5k over the runway (WoT)
4.   There are 2 tempests or 262s B-N-Zing the furball (AoM)

To NOT be completely negative about furballers...SAPP walk the walk...when i am furballing with them I know its all about dogfighting and having fun..IMHO CorkyJr et al were the only furballers who actually furball...I'm sorry he is gone....That IS a loss <S>

Seriously...have the pontificators here ever considered that their behavior discourages what most would consider "furballing" and perhaps lead to the behaviors they object to?  And Scotch...trying to vulch my out of gas tempest landing after chasing me back to base really lets me know how much "honor" and "old guard" you really are...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 11:30:25 AM by FALCONWING »
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Offline oTRALFZo

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2009, 11:26:44 AM »
Agreed.


Basically, I think there is something innately satisfying in seeing the text come up in the buffer saying you've captured a base.

I like to fulfill the objectives of a mission that I'm on, which very often may be to capture a base.  The essential condition for a successful base capture is simple, and is as follows:

 - To allow 10 troops to successfully enter the maproom, with all town objects having been destroyed.

Of course, in addition to that there are multiple other factors which come into play, one of which is that in order to maximise the probability that 10 troops make it to the maproom, you should ideally prevent enemies from approaching those troops.  Seeing as most planes in the game can reach 200mph shortly after takeoff, they can cover the distance between the airfield and town in very little time.  Unless you have some good sticks involved in your mission, they (the enemy) may be able to reach the town, and kill your troop-carrier/troops.  However, the easiest way to ensure that they do not kill your C-47/M-3 etc is to ensure that they never get the chance to leave their airfield, which is where NOE missions (which of course are designed NOT to allow the enemy to launch many aircraft) are so advantageous.

If you ONLY have the flashing base as an indication of an approaching NOE, for all you know it could be a bailed pilot, GV, single enemy landed somewhere nearby.  Unless you actually go out and hunt around for a bit, you may not know of the NOE until it has essentially reached the town, by which point it is almost too late (as defending fighters will not have time to gain enough speed and/or altitude to fight, before being swamped by attacking 110s).

I completely understand how, for a seasoned and experienced player, something like this could very quickly be very boring (if he/she were an attacker; as a defender getting vulched is frustrating for anyone), because many of these 'veterans' are so good at the game that those things which challenge a new player (i.e. shooting down ANY enemy by ANY means possible) essentially become repetitive, and so they move on to things which they find harder - such as shooting down an enemy NOT on the first merge, WITHOUT head-ons, USING complicated ACMs.

However, what I don't understand is how (or why) these seasoned, long-time players then FORGET that what's easy for them may be difficult for a new player, and then go on to criticise these less-capable sticks, and then dispute the way in which they play the game.  This seems to be accompanied by the long-timers lamenting the 'good old days' when players used to try to fight well, rather than capture bases (another argument I have a problem with).

Presumably, such long time players, a few years back were not very good.  In fact, they probably HOed, hoarded etc just like many of today's new players do.  However, in time their skills improved, meaning that HOing, taking undefended bases and hoarding became far less challenging, FAR easier, and altogether less appealing to them.
In other words, yesterday's (meaning several years ago) n00bs and HOtards are today's experienced and capable sticks, possible even trainers.

And this is where I come back to the original post that I quoted: in conclusion, this process of n00bs turning into capable pilots could be accelerated if today's veterans would help today's n00bs, and as a consequence, improve gameplay.




Sorry for making that so absurdly long, but I really do think it is relevant, and correct.
I completly agree with you 100%. but you have to agree that a great percentage of these people dont have the attention span and their only form of gratification is seeing that "feild 23 was captured by the <insert country here>. Problem with that is when your put in that "Shell" for a prolonged period of time, the learning curve becomes that much harder.
I find myself in situations with some good sticks that I dont stand a chance. I get pounced on before I can even get a shot. NO, its not fun. As time progresses,  I can see that the more I practice at it..the better I become. I dont want to seek instant gratification all the time..as it stands now..Im awful in fighters, but persistance shows that soon, I can give "vets" a run for their money as long as I keep the attitude to better myself.
as far as the "alt f4" monkeys..well your always going to get them. Personally in my experiences here with the "long timers" has always been a positive one when they are in green.
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Offline rip033

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2009, 11:28:50 AM »
That is what makes this game so fun or frustrating (depending on you) is that you cannot control the game. This game is changing everyday and you pretty much have to keep up or get left behind. I like all the scenarios like dogfighting or taking bases or gving or bombing. That's why the game has attracted so many people. :salute to the basetakers or the dogfighters or the ground vehicle guys out there. You are what make this game fun. :salute
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Offline Widewing

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2009, 11:43:34 AM »
if an NOE comes in and the base is totally undefended its purely the fault of the defenders (or lack there of)..

why are NOEs so effective?

well it plays out as such:

somebody types "A23 is flashing"  but they themselves don't go there.. figuring someone else will go, they called it out, did their part.

then as it keeps flashing..  those hundred plus people who saw the message that A23 is flashing, ignore it,  figuring others will respond, they are buisy.

finally as the mission "hits" someone goes to the tower and says "ALERT NOE! A23" by then the base is capped and the town is getting obliterated..  even then almost nobody upps for the last ditch effort at defense..

probably because they already logged out to come make a post about how lame NOEs are  :aok


If the intent were to fight, the horde would attack a busy, active base. The mere fact that a remote base is targeted is obviously due to not wanting a fight. Any attempt at justifying it any other way is pure baloney.

Next, how many people sit in the tower scanning bases in the rear for possible attack? Very few if any. There are many reasons why a town or base may flash. Most of the time, it's a single GV for a formation of bombers milkrunning.

Finally, when it becomes apparent that it's an NOE horde, there is little time to get airborne. It takes time to get the word out, get enough players to land, auger or otherwise get to the base under attack. Then, even if they do get airborne, the horde is already on the town. So, the defenders start with small numbers and a huge E disadvantage.

The fact is that the majority of players in AH2 at this time have zero ACM skills. They don't have the desire to learn, because learning takes effort and effort is to be avoided at all cost. So, they fly in gangs where the risk of getting singled out is minimal. Yet, many still die; testament to their uber skill set....

There are some things that can offset the increasing mindset of horde mongering.

1) Put several manned, hardened, 88mm or 90mm flak guns on each base. Reach out to the town and pop some 110s. Makes porking a lightly defended base extremely risky.

2) Increased lethality of existing field ack (it's largely ineffective now). Reduce the effectiveness of field porking, if they can't survive more than one pass through the ack.

3) Harden the ammo bunkers. Current bunkers are no more difficult to kill than a barracks. Bunkers are bunkers, they should be hard to kill.

4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.

5) Eliminate perk points for killing structures in attack mode. No perk rewards for killing buildings with 110s, Nikis and the like.

6) Remove shooting structures from Attack hit percentage. Only hits on aircraft or vehicles count towards hit percentage. This will impact score only slightly, but it's something at least.

7) Perk bombs over 500 lbs or 250 kilos in attack mode. If it were to cost 4 perks to suicide bomb... There will be less of it.

8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.

9) Heavy bombers (B-17, B-24 and Lancaster) cannot drop bombs unless the player is on the bomb sight. This would stop the dive-bombing heavy bombers.

10) No bomber (bomb sight or otherwise) can drop bombs from F3 view. This would eliminate some of the more gamey behavior.


My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline caldera

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »
Stop with all that nice talk rip!   I don't get the whole noe horde thing either but it is their $15. 

I think Lute and the others are right though.  There would be a lot more good fights if the player base would at least try.
It sucks getting waxed all the time but eventually you get better. I have helped gang bases long ago and it got incredibly boring.
It is so much more fun fighting for a base than noe swarming it.
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Offline Banshee7

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2009, 12:52:54 PM »

Snip

My regards,

Widewing



Very good post WW, 100% true to the bone
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2009, 12:54:21 PM »
It seems to me that the fundamental underlying question is what is the purpose of difference points of view concerning gameplay.  By this I don't mean "fun" because that is the universal answer by all groups, but more to the point how is that fun defined. 

In my little corner of the world base capture isn't really about taking the real estate at all.  The base and territory are there to funnel players towards each other so they occupy the same space on the map and thus create player to player conflict.  I have no idea if this philosophy is in line with what the folks at HTC are after or not. 

To me the discord is that when the absolute goal is the real estate then the most effective methods for achieving that goal almost require tactics and methods that remove as much player verse player conflict as possible.  Any spirited defense will slow the rate per time of base captures, if the real estate is the goal then the best thing to do when defense is encountered is to move the point of attack.

Generally speaking I think it's safe to say that most would consider me a furballer, or an ACM junkie (although a poor one at that).  In most cases the strategic state of The War don't concern me as much as logging on for a few hours and trying to find a good fight or two.  The reason for this is because after playing this game for I don't know how long (10 years since AH1 beta?) there is one part of gameplay that still offers a challenge and something to learn (and judging by the number of times I get whooped on a daily basis I'll be playing for some time to come).  I think I've looked at this situation from a fairly neutral point of view but I am approaching the situation from the side of the furballers.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »
8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.

I can only imagine the epic whines. :O
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Offline Murdr

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2009, 01:09:23 PM »
It seems to me that the fundamental underlying question is what is the purpose of difference points of view concerning gameplay.  By this I don't mean "fun" because that is the universal answer by all groups, but more to the point how is that fun defined. 

In my little corner of the world base capture isn't really about taking the real estate at all.  The base and territory are there to funnel players towards each other so they occupy the same space on the map and thus create player to player conflict.  I have no idea if this philosophy is in line with what the folks at HTC are after or not. 

To me the discord is that when the absolute goal is the real estate then the most effective methods for achieving that goal almost require tactics and methods that remove as much player verse player conflict as possible.  Any spirited defense will slow the rate per time of base captures, if the real estate is the goal then the best thing to do when defense is encountered is to move the point of attack.

This may help lend some insight.

Quote
Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.

This is a false assumption...


The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech



and at the same time...


FALCONWING: Please do not confuse my post as bop bashing. I have never stated the Bops wanted to always be on the country side with numbers. Nore do I belive game play like the Bops "win the war" stratagy is a bad thing. Nor do I belive coradinating tatics as a bad thing.

This is exatly the same as I view the laz type game play, I do not belive wanting to just find the closest fight is a bad thing either.

I allso do not belive country or squad loaylty is a bad thing.

All have there place In AH.

But problems arise when any of the above are taken to excess.
For instance lets look at what I view as Laz's ideal arena taken to exess.

Air starts 5k off deck. No bombers,no scoring , artifical box aound the play field, that if you run you are blown up. All planes turning style planes, with no planes faster than others.

This would create one fast paced, continues quick action furball. But what are the side effects.
1. New players would burn out fairly quickly.
2. Will to live dimisish greatly.
3. You never get that successfull feeling of beating the odds, and living to tell the tail.
4. You have very little time to socialize with other players.

So while some furballers would say, hey thats all good stuff, I belive AH would be dead long ago if thats all it was.

It is my belief that creating an "Air force" like the Bop's is a also form of exess.

So I don't view your post as "suspicion".

I do view it as you put

1. Loyalty to "Air Force".
2. Loyalty to "Country"
3. Creating a Sudo realy Air Force, with simalar rules.
4. Creating one of the larger Air Forces in AH.

Above the need for ah's over all game play.

And your post while not stating the above resones I see it as an attempt to try put your rules above  AH's game play. I also do not think that you are trying to do this dilibertaly (I.E. I do not believe you think My way or AH be damed)

I view you more like,

These would be your thoughts.
"I see problems like  Imbalance  , lower arena limits,less friendly arenas then of old. But I think that we can change other things to still let me implemnt my "Air force" pryorities.


What I believe you do not see , is simply you have taken it to exess.

HiTech

My interpretation is that one "style" of gameplay is as valid as another, until they are taken to the extreme and start harming overall gameplay.

Offline smokey23

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2009, 01:19:31 PM »
Thats the reason the Lynchmob left the bish the whole 60 person horde mentality goin after undefended bases was embarrasing and we didnt want any part of that.We prefer a good fight. what takes them 50+ guys to do we can do with 4 or 5 guys and a few planes undefended bases are easy no skill involved in takeing one of them.

Offline Shifty

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2009, 01:25:06 PM »

If the intent were to fight, the horde would attack a busy, active base. The mere fact that a remote base is targeted is obviously due to not wanting a fight. Any attempt at justifying it any other way is pure baloney.

Next, how many people sit in the tower scanning bases in the rear for possible attack? Very few if any. There are many reasons why a town or base may flash. Most of the time, it's a single GV for a formation of bombers milkrunning.

Finally, when it becomes apparent that it's an NOE horde, there is little time to get airborne. It takes time to get the word out, get enough players to land, auger or otherwise get to the base under attack. Then, even if they do get airborne, the horde is already on the town. So, the defenders start with small numbers and a huge E disadvantage.

The fact is that the majority of players in AH2 at this time have zero ACM skills. They don't have the desire to learn, because learning takes effort and effort is to be avoided at all cost. So, they fly in gangs where the risk of getting singled out is minimal. Yet, many still die; testament to their uber skill set....

There are some things that can offset the increasing mindset of horde mongering.

1) Put several manned, hardened, 88mm or 90mm flak guns on each base. Reach out to the town and pop some 110s. Makes porking a lightly defended base extremely risky.

2) Increased lethality of existing field ack (it's largely ineffective now). Reduce the effectiveness of field porking, if they can't survive more than one pass through the ack.

3) Harden the ammo bunkers. Current bunkers are no more difficult to kill than a barracks. Bunkers are bunkers, they should be hard to kill.

4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.

5) Eliminate perk points for killing structures in attack mode. No perk rewards for killing buildings with 110s, Nikis and the like.

6) Remove shooting structures from Attack hit percentage. Only hits on aircraft or vehicles count towards hit percentage. This will impact score only slightly, but it's something at least.

7) Perk bombs over 500 lbs or 250 kilos in attack mode. If it were to cost 4 perks to suicide bomb... There will be less of it.

8) For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.

9) Heavy bombers (B-17, B-24 and Lancaster) cannot drop bombs unless the player is on the bomb sight. This would stop the dive-bombing heavy bombers.

10) No bomber (bomb sight or otherwise) can drop bombs from F3 view. This would eliminate some of the more gamey behavior.


My regards,

Widewing



 :aok

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Offline Soulyss

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2009, 01:29:09 PM »
Thanks for digging that up Murdr.
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Offline WMLute

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2009, 02:10:08 PM »
I had forgotten that HiTech gave his opinion that the BOP's did indeed take that "style" of gameplay to its extreme to the detriment of the game.  (thanks Murdr)

I would postulate that these other squads, which are doing exactly what the BOP's did, are also taking that "style" of gameplay to its extreme to the detriment of the game.  (I would add that the BOP's style was less "extreme" than what we are experiencing today with certain squads)

Which begs the question are those that run these squads who are engaging in this type of behavior willing to take the steps required to help improve the overall gameplay, or are they going to continue being detriments to this beloved game.

(I would also add that the BOP's style of gameplay has indeed changed from back then, and I in no way shape or form lump them in with the squads I have been discussing in this thread)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:24:06 PM by WMLute »
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Offline FALCONWING

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2009, 02:13:15 PM »
That was now 3 years ago Murdr and BoPs operations then were vastly different then we are now...When HTC implemented the 40% capture rule to reset and split the arenas...the need for a very large BoP force went away...

I personally think it was a brilliant move on his part and have complimented him on it since....back in 2005 ganging one country was a common scenario(for those of you not here then..there were no uncapturable bases and maps were often small)...BopS growth to a 90+ man squad back then was in reaction to having to have  a means to fight your way out of a ganging box...we were very good at regaining real estate and allowing bish room to breathe...because of this we were a popular bish squad to join...

Over the last year or two i would say we are less a base capture squad...except on squad night..and more a defense or furballing squad...we enjoy cv fights and routinely do fiter sweeps...of course we still NOE at times but proportionally less.  We also don't advertise our missions and do them from within whoever is on...thus our numbers have shrunk..at least in terms of active members...we don't openly recruit...

If you see how many captures I have versus back then I suspect it is much less...i just dont capture like i used to...I don't see the need personally...it is very hard to "win the war" and unless the bish are being overrun i prefer to furball/defend with quick short action fights....

In many ways our numbers are perfect now...we always have enough on to "do" something but not too many to clog up the vox ch etc.

All this doesn't change my original point which is that most who call themselves "furballers" and point fingers at th3 Hord3 are actually mediocre pilots (when placed in the MA vs DA) who want a reputation as being l33t...the current environment doesn't support how they want to fly...for many picking, roping etc and it upsets them...true furballers who don't mind dying can always find a fight...and YES, all of you reading this going "i know he doesn't mean me"...yes i probaby mean you...

See, i have no problem accepting who/what i am...If I am the secret C.O. of a secret air force.... :aok  If i lead NOEs to give us something to do while we joke around and have fun.... :aok    If i fly la7s because they let me do what i need to do most easily.... :aok   As long as I am having fun I'll be in the game...when that stops I'll look forward to the next thing that gives me the same comradery and fun :salute  Right now though it seems I'm still having fun and somehow these others are not...odd
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:30:10 PM by FALCONWING »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: All hail...
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2009, 02:16:30 PM »
4) Reduce radar height from 500 feet to 200 feet AGL. This will result in more unwanted pop-up darbars and increase the likelihood that dweebs will auger. Offers a better chance to detect an NOE early in the mission.

Why not just reduce it to the soil and be done?

For all fighters not currently perked, add a 5 point perk to all fighters with an ENY of 8 or less. This will get some of the horde gang into lesser fighters.


I don't much want my P-47N or Ta-152 perked. I don't think it would be *just* to perk the N1K. More to the point, and less personally, I don't see the point in perking the very same fighters the defenders are likely to up to defend...players are more likely to leave them in the hangar for such "suicide defenses" than they are offensively.

Otherwise, good ideas.
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