Please reconsider the Ta152 ENY

[moot]

Not getting the horse and buggy for the 110G though.

Blinders and ordnance, whip-snapping carriage driver..

[grizz441]

 
Nice m00t.

I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.

I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot.  That's why the P51D is the most popular ride.  One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming.  The perfect main arena ride.  You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED.  All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes.  Like I said, the masses create the MA environment.  Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game.  Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds.  What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?

[BnZs]

Nice m00t.

I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.

I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot.  That's why the P51D is the most popular ride.  One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming.  The perfect main arena ride.  You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED.  All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes.  Like I said, the masses create the MA environment.  Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game.  Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds.  What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?

Grizz, by your theories, the D9 would be the *most* popular plane, since it is better in almost every way for the hit and run style compared to the P-51D, as is the La7. "Guns"? The P-51D has mediocre lethality. The P-47N, Typhoon, and Ta-152 (361mph OTD, massive firepower) should also be "up there" if your theory was correct. They are not. In reality, out of those planes only the P-51D and La7 are amongst the "most popular", and the other two of the "most popular" are the 344mph OTD SpitXVI, and the 325mph OTD N1K.

The airplane choices in AHII aren't about speed alone, or likely any other rational basis. They do not reflect the worth of a plane, or the ease/difficulty of getting kills in it. IMO, it would be foolish to determine ENY on a "popularity contest" basis. I mean, up to 50% of sorties may be flown by pilots who don't have any firm idea of the relative performance of their ride vs. the rest of the set. ("I thought the P-51 was the fastest...").

BTW, the La7 is the fastest non perked plane OTD, at 381mph. The Typhoon has 372mph OTD. The 190 can get 375, IF the drop tank rail is not taken, which drops its top speed OTD to 369.

[AWwrgwy]

No, ENY is about arena balance, and therefore the stronger planes ought to be lower on the ENY scale.

I think I said the same thing, word for word.

The K4:152 ENYs don't match their relative performance, nor their performance in a furball.  What you're describing is the criteria for perking. 

I look at ENY as perking without the perks needed to fly as the first planes you cannot fly as sides become out-of-balance are the high ENY planes.

No matter what a perked plane "costs", you still can't fly it once ENY kicks in to penalize the higher numbered side.


wrongway

[moot]

That's not what the first part of your post read like.  It read like a refutal to Grizz saying popularity should decide ENY.. Which IMO is too far opposite as well. I think ENY needs to hit the right compromise between pure potential and actual performance in the game.  Having a game that's 95% xbox gamers would make for different optimal ENY values than one where 95% of the players were dyed in the wool purists.

And in this discussion we need to pick words a bit more carefully.  The first planes you can't fly with growing ENY limitations are the planes low on the ENY scale. I'm not trying to be snotty about it.. It just makes for misunderstandings.  "High ENY planes"

And the K4 and 152 ENYs are inconsistent.  The 152 might have better firepower, but you actually need to survive and then actually hit.  It's easier to do that with the K4.

[grizz441]

I have good answers for all the points you bring up so let me try to sort it out. 

Grizz, by your theories, the D9 would be the *most* popular plane, since it is better in almost every way for the hit and run style compared to the P-51D, as is the La7. "Guns"? The P-51D has mediocre lethality.

The D9 is one of the most popular rides first of all.  Imo the reason it isn't as popular as the P51D is because of its forward cockpit visibility.  The 20mm's are hard to aim with for the average player especially with all the obstructions in the forward art.  If HTC switched around the forward arts of the P51D and Fw190D9z I am convinced the D9 would take over as the most popular ride in the MA.  And also on top of that, 50 cals are easier to aim with even if they aren't as lethal, but once a player learns how to aim 6 50 cals is extremely potent. 

The P-47N, Typhoon, and Ta-152 (361mph OTD, massive firepower) should also be "up there" if your theory was correct. They are not. In reality, out of those planes only the P-51D and La7 are amongst the "most popular", and the other two of the "most popular" are the 344mph OTD SpitXVI, and the 325mph OTD N1K.

Typhoon: Haha Bnz, the Typhoon is a top 5 killer in the MA, I would consider that part of the 'most popular' group and in congruence with my theory.
P47N: This plane just 'feels' slow and actually is quite slow without its wep (which only lasts 5 minutes).  It takes forever to climb up to a reasonable altitude and accelerates like a dog. 
Ta152: Wobbly handling, difficult ballistics, and its obstructed german forward view (like the D9) deter average pilots from flying it.  Imo you need a set of rudder pedals to have any chance of flying this plane with any sort of success. 

I feel the average pilot usually makes a choice what he wants to do.  Either A) SPEED AND GUNS which are the planes I have mentioned and are the most popular of that mentality or B) TURN AND GUNS.  The absolute best turners with Gunz that also have decent enough speed to compete in the LW?  Spits and N1K2s. 

The airplane choices in AHII aren't about speed alone, or likely any other rational basis. They do not reflect the worth of a plane, or the ease/difficulty of getting kills in it. IMO, it would be foolish to determine ENY on a "popularity contest" basis. I mean, up to 50% of sorties may be flown by pilots who don't have any firm idea of the relative performance of their ride vs. the rest of the set. ("I thought the P-51 was the fastest...").

I don't think it should be based 100% on popularity alone but I do think that popularity should be playing a larger roll in determining Eny.  With the P51D consistently ranking as the #1 Killer in the MA I have a hard time seeing how it can be Eny 8 and not 5.

There would be something positive coming out out Enying the popular rides more stringently though.  Players would be forced to try other less popular planes.  It would diversify the arena more and teach the majority of players about what they are missing in the rest of the plane set.

[bongaroo]

I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot.  That's why the P51D is the most popular ride.  One of the fastest rides with ezmode guns and aiming.  The perfect main arena ride.  You can divulge into all sorts of secondary stats that deal with a plane's performance and why it's actually *not that good* but as far as the essential stats that matter for MA success are concerned, the P51 has them both... GUNS and SPEED.  All other stats (i.e. turn performance, roll) simply don't matter in the MA the way 95% of the people fly the popular planes.  Like I said, the masses create the MA environment.  Imo the 190D9 might be the best non perked MA plane in the game.  Fastest non perked plane on the deck and 500 20mm cannon rounds.  What more do you need to fly like a timid picktard?

I'm with Grizz on this.  If usage determined ENY, with ENY updating say weekly or montly, the planes that are most flown will in turn be the first to be limited due to side imbalance.  I like the idea.

[Anaxogoras]

I'm sorry Wrongway & BnZ I have to disagree.

I firmly believe a plane's popularity is directly correlated with its ability to be successful in the MA environment by the average pilot.  That's why the P51D is the most popular ride.

They're not saying there's no correlation.  They're saying it's not a necessary connection, i.e. you can't say a priori that a popular plane is a high performance plane.

[BnZs]

Ta152: Wobbly handling, difficult ballistics, and its obstructed german forward view (like the D9) deter average pilots from flying it.  Imo you need a set of rudder pedals to have any chance of flying this plane with any sort of success. 

Nope to that. I have a twisty stick. Ta-152 is probably about as easy to land kills in as a P-51 once you get used to it. It is a better 1v1 fighter IMO. WEP conservation IS important in a 47N, but look at what you get...essentially the same WEP speed as a P-51, one of the fastest high-speed roll rates, 8 .50s. And it turns better. It also falls into the "about as good" category IMO. IMO, the worst b'n'z plane named out of this lot is the Typhoon, with its poor roll rate and poor climb rate. And the Typhoon is more popular than the other two...there goes the AHII masses being mistaken about a plane's worth again.

I don't think it should be based 100% on popularity alone but I do think that popularity should be playing a larger roll in determining Eny.  With the P51D consistently ranking as the #1 Killer in the MA I have a hard time seeing how it can be Eny 8 and not 5.

The P-51D is definitely a mediocre aircraft compared to two of the eny 5s, the SpitXVI and La7. As for the Ta-152, 47N, and N1K, I have difficulty seeing why they are eny 5 at all.

Remember, the stats for "usage" are actually kills+deaths. The number #1 unperked killer most tours is the Ta-152. Okay, you'll say that plane is flown only by a cadre of experts...fine, the Dora9 and bog-slow HurriIIc are fairly popular and also had higher K/Ds than the P-51D, as did the SpitXVI in 2008.

Be more accurate to say the P-51D is a popular plane to DIE in. Popularity does not increase performance. I see no reason why people rolling a P-51D should be punished by ENY and people rolling a Dora9 or other "sleepers" should be rewarded.

[Anaxogoras]

Keep in mind, the P-51 is always going to be a popular plane for suicide porking because it's near impossible to stop.

Edit:

If the P-51D could only carry 500lb bombs, you'd see its usage drop considerably.

[BnZs]

IMO, ENY and Perk values should be determined by a huge experten-only dueling tourney. Of course, multiple combats with all possible combinations of fighter planes and different pilots at various altitudes could take awhile.....

[Stoney]

When I first started playing, the P-47N had an ENY of 12 versus the Pony's 8.  I thought that better represented the performance relationship between the two aircraft.  I believe whole-heartedly that the Jug-N should have a 5 OBJ rating (along with the D-40), but I think a 5 ENY is a little low.  I also think the Ta152 ENY is too low.

[grizz441]

The P-51D is definitely a mediocre aircraft compared to two of the eny 5s, the SpitXVI and La7. As for the Ta-152, 47N, and N1K, I have difficulty seeing why they are eny 5 at all.

Remember, the stats for "usage" are actually kills+deaths. The number #1 unperked killer most tours is the Ta-152. Okay, you'll say that plane is flown only by a cadre of experts...fine, the Dora9 and bog-slow HurriIIc are fairly popular and also had higher K/Ds than the P-51D, as did the SpitXVI in 2008.

Be more accurate to say the P-51D is a popular plane to DIE in. Popularity does not increase performance. I see no reason why people rolling a P-51D should be punished by ENY and people rolling a Dora9 or other "sleepers" should be rewarded.

P51D isn't mediocre to the Spit16 nor the La7.  Spit16 just isn't fast enough to be timid with.  Comparing the Spit16 and P51D is apples and oranges, two entirely different planes with different strengths.  The La7 just doesn't have enough endurance to be able to go on that long timid mission where you might get 1 or 2 kills in 30 minutes.  Not many pilots actually throttle back.   

You are right though about the D9, I see no reason either why taking it out of hangar should give you a 15 eny reward.  D9 should be around 8 eny imo.  And I think you'll see that its popularity is quite high for it being a '15 eny' bird.

IMO, ENY and Perk values should be determined by a huge experten-only dueling tourney. Of course, multiple combats with all possible combinations of fighter planes and different pilots at various altitudes could take awhile.....

With this idea here, you are completely ignoring the dynamic of the main arena which is not like any 1v1 duel.  The best information available on plane performance is the data that comes out each month from the LW.

[grizz441]

They're not saying there's no correlation.  They're saying it's not a necessary connection, i.e. you can't say a priori that a popular plane is a high performance plane.

There is a strong correlation between the lot of pilots flying the best planes in the MA that give them the best chance of success.  Those planes should be considered the 'best'.  Just look at the top 5 killers each month.  It rarely varies.

[Anaxogoras]

The top 5 killers:

P-51D
Spitfire Mk XVI
Typhoon IB
N1K2
F4U-1D

Funny that the La-7 isn't there, even though it is a superior arena aircraft.