Author Topic: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.  (Read 5856 times)

Offline Die Hard

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 10:12:13 AM »
PS. "seems like the 190 A5 ought to at least somewhat turn with the P-47 at low alt where it has a power loading advantage." There is also a film available of a (claimed) FW190 turning with a P47, turning inside it and even pulling lead for a shot and at the same time you can see vapour trails coming from wing tips of the P47 as it tries to turn tighter. Of course it does not tell much but, at least to me, it certainly tells me about 190's turning ability in some speed range.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqjs5NzKSxg

190A-8 vs La-5 timecode 4:52

190A-7 vs P-47 timecode 6:08
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Offline Shane

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2009, 10:42:02 AM »
   Hello everyone, I'm Gaston Marty, the designer of an extensive re-vamp of the old Avalon Hill "Air Force" boardgame. It is called "Advanced Air Force", and you can see and print it for free at "Mike's Air Force Dauntless web site";
          
Gaston.

<sniffle>  fond memories of having no one to play Air Force or Dauntless with way back when.  It was my first exposure to a ww2 aircraft game, building on the interest I was developing at that age.  I think I might even still have the data cards somewhere.

4SLL (pp) -.6   

 :noid

<edit> after browsing the replies, it seems I'm the only one who actually played these games, lol.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:44:09 AM by Shane »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 11:22:43 AM »
<edit> after browsing the replies, it seems I'm the only one who actually played these games, lol.

No, you're not alone...



You can see, I still have them. They are waiting for the day I find someone to play with   ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:24:39 AM by Lusche »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 05:01:35 PM »
Even cursory review of contemporary from the period will show that "boom and zoom" was copiously practiced whenever circumstances allowed in all areas of operation.

Furthermore, even a cursory review of the available gun camera footage and contemporary reports will reveal plenty of cases where a single pass and a single burst resulted in either severe damage or destruction of the enemy aircraft. I have never seen any evidence that the guns lethality in AHII is greatly out of whack, especially when you consider that he average AH pilot has the advantage of dozens/hundreds/or even thousands of hours of gunnery practice under realistic conditions, unlike his real life contemporary.

Finally, while the specific terminology of "energy fighting" was not invented yet, pilots were taught about converting airspeed to altitude and vis versa, and taught almost the entire range of vertical maneuvers still in use today. There are plenty of examples from contemporary sources of the use of 3 dimensional/vertical/energy maneuvering in WWII....Hell, Max Immelman probably "invented" the concept in WWI!



 
    I understand what you are saying, the CV means that past a certain velocity, the increasing turn rate shifts to an always descending trend.

    I think this concept is inherited from jet air combat, where "energy" has a great role to play, because the range of speeds is so vast compared to WWII. The "CV"; the speed at which the turn rate "peaks", is always very low compared a jet's maximum speed, so it is crucial to adjust CORRECTLY between that and the top speed to get where you want to go; thus the slowing "high yo-yo" versus the accelerating "low yo-yo"; terms and maneuvers I have never heard from WWII pilots accounts, which are absolutely bread-and-butter to jet fighter pilots...

    When you listen to WWII accounts, the "energy" (which I read as "excess relative speed") counts less than the altitude advantage and acceleration. Also the CV "peak" was not linear, limited to one, or similar in shape among these vastly idiosyncratic aircrafts. The Me-109G had two CV "peaks", with a big hole in the middle, the P-47 and P-51 had very late CV "peaks", which meant their best turn rates could not be sustained without making a descending spiral, because the engine had no reserve power at this best turn rate, so close was this to the maximum level speed.

    With altitude, a WWII fighter could make a high speed attack/getaway (boom and zoom), but an overlooked aspect of this "energy fighting" is the exaggerated effectiveness of the gun armament in computer games; in reality, the higher the relative speed, the weaker the armamament strike. The more energy you have compared to your opponent, the more bullets/shells will miss. In WWII they HAD to stay and maneuver to finish the job, and they could not attack at too high a relative speed. This is why the Me-163B was so hopeless, despite an armament that could crush any foe. This was simply not how guns allowed the game to be played...

    The exception to the above was combat against Japanese aircrafts, where a few hits would ignite the large long range unprotected fuel tanks of the Japanese, and where the higher speed actually minimized the maneuverability disparity between Japanese and American aircrafts. Here is a WWII situation where excess relative speed was actually useful...

     In Europe there were more maneuvering contests. The Germans faced a disadvantage due to the low fuel situation; no permanent Combat Air Patrols (CAP) were possible; fights were entered after a long climb with a hot engine. This probably lost them the acceleration parity they had a higher altitudes, making it impossible for them to avoid the descending spiral or dives that so favored the P-51 and P-47's best turn rate. A turn rate peak (CV) which, without altitude loss, could not be sustained, so near was it to the maximum level speed of these two American fighters...

     To summarize, my point is that during WWII, the weakness and range of the gun armament did not allow "energy fighting" to the extent of applying the later principles of jet air combat, and the "corner velocity" principle is too neat and simple for the bunch of prop-driven weirdos that are supposed to fit into it.

    Gaston.

     

     
   
 
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Die Hard

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 05:28:36 PM »
And Boelcke. His Dicta Boelcke is still used in fighter pilot training today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke
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Offline Simaril

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 06:46:12 PM »
<sniffle>  fond memories of having no one to play Air Force or Dauntless with way back when.  It was my first exposure to a ww2 aircraft game, building on the interest I was developing at that age.  I think I might even still have the data cards somewhere.

4SLL (pp) -.6   

 :noid

<edit> after browsing the replies, it seems I'm the only one who actually played these games, lol.


My brother was an Air Force/Dauntless fanatic. Still has the boxes in a...um...safe place. Oddly enough was just emailing him yesterday about addons for the games.

If you're seriously into playing, let me know - -I can see if he's up for some PBEM!
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Offline Simaril

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 06:50:26 PM »
No, you're not alone...

(Image removed from quote.)

You can see, I still have them. They are waiting for the day I find someone to play with   ;)

I still have Luftwaffe, in the basement. Tried playing that solo several times, but not a great solo game. Also played a lot of Richtofen's War - and found one of my all time "I must be getting old" moments on a visit to Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, where they had a copy of the game on display outside the WW1 hall.

Personally liked Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader about best from that era. Still have those, plus Tobruk and a few others, in the basement stack.
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Offline Gaston

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 06:12:06 AM »


      To answer Bnz's comments;

     I did not intend to mean that energy fighting was useless, not used, or unknown in WWII. What I meant is that it was not as dominant a tactic in WWII Europe as usually assumed, and that contrary to widespread assumptions, maneuvering combat was a lot more prevalent in Europe than in the Pacific. This was due to the relative equality of characteristics between the opponents in Europe, and was noted as such by actual pilots of the time. In the Pacific, the Japanese noted ONLY the Hellcat would engage them regularly in maneuvering combat, and it has, by the way, by far the highest tally of kills... In theory the P-38 could also maneuver, but I think in person the P-38 is a blinder and more intimidating ride than "on paper"...

    Note that I do concede energy tactics were more predominant in the Pacific, but I think it is useful to emphasize that this importance was due in large parts to the characteristics of the opposing aircrafts involved.

    Note the premium I put on the altitude advantage, which is in part related to energy tactics, but the most important, and overlooked, thing about altitude advantage is that, when you are not lined up behind another aircraft, which is most of the time, pointing your nose at or in front of him means he is slipping away, because his progress will be faster than yours, since you are at a cross angle to his trajectory. Even if your aircraft is faster and more maneuverable, allowing you to keep the lead ahead, your inputs will not match exactly enough his rate of progress to put most of your shots into him.

    By being above him and nosing down, the dive acceleration allows you to match his rate of progress easier, making for a steadier aim from a wider variety of angles. So altitude advantage gives you a better, steadier aim, and, I would argue, that this is at least as important as the overtaking speed to obtain the single-burst kill you were talking about.

    I attempted to duplicate this in my game by allowing a greater vertical gun reach from above; 1200ft., vs 600 ft. from below.

    The way I see it, pure Boom and Zoom was essential against a more maneuverable enemy that was not slower; early Pacific. Very good against an unusually fragile enemy that was slower; late Pacific, and useable against an enemy that started or stayed below you, PROVIDED you had good high speed handling on your side; P-47, P-51; late Western Europe. The P-38 could Boom and Zoom at LOW altitudes against the slower Japanese, where its poor allowable TAS was much higher, but did badly against the faster or higher Germans. The FW-190A and A6M Zero are two types that generally would do poorly with Boom and Zoom tactics. The Me-109G, on the other hand, would do well if the pilot remembers the big trim wheel (Not always the case!)...

    As for jet-era vs prop-era tactics;

    A high yo-yo to slow you down to a better turn rate would be of no use in a P-51 or P-47, which turn better at higher speeds...

    A low yo-yo to accelerate in a turn would probably make more sense in many American prop fighters, but not if you are flying a FW-190A, A6M Zero, or any other kind of WWII fighter that mushes at higher speeds (FW-190A), or that doubles its turn radius quickly as speed goes up (A6M, FW-190A or medium speed Me-109G). It is a valid tactic in some circumstances, but at the serious cost of having to raise the nose afterwards to hit your opponent, and I think it would have been done often simply to stay in the enemy's blind spot...

    WWII fighters had such diverse personalities that cookie-cutter energy maneuvers like high/low yo-yos were not necessarily applicable.

    Another general concept like Corner Velocity simply has no practical value for numerous types; Me-109G, P-47, P-51...

    Jets have far more consistent traits (and on top of that behave symmetrically!), so I would underline instead the specialized WWII knowledge that was necessary to achieve dozens or hundreds of kills, and encourage to not try to placate post war jet fighter training on that era.

    I would say a few things would stand out to simmers who would fly these WWII contraptions for real; the confusion and near-physical pain created by the tremendous engine noise, the vibrations and crummy static-ladden radio (not so on spark plug-free jets!), all of which means it takes a while to see calmly past the windows...; the difficulty of seeing down and ahead; and perhaps most of all the shocking weakness of the guns, due in large parts to the various buffeting oscillations of a small maneuvering aircraft.

   The effect of guns would be hard to replicate exactly by a computer model, but I will take as an example a recent poster in this forum who had great success with the Me-163B, shooting down regularly several bombers, to a maximum of four. In reply, someone said that the Me-163B had trouble getting to the bombers, but once there it had no trouble shooting them down. In fact, it is just the opposite; the guns were the single biggest headache of the Me-163B, despite 30mm ballistic properties that were not all that bad, as recently shown here in an animation (or is it in Il-2 GD?).

   That someone in real-life shot down 2 B-17s with the Komet is probably a minor miracle, and was seen as such at the time. I think most discrepancies with real-life successes in simulations boils down to the gun impact on actual structures and the real flight buffeting accuracy, but solving these problems is not an enviable task...

    I hope I'm not boring everyone to death, so I'll conclude quickly by saying to Lusche, Shane, or anyone, that if they want to play by E-Mail my version of the Air Force game, available for free as "Advanced Air Force", I am perfectly willing: Here again the link;
                 
                      http://www.visi.com/~mrowles/Mike%27s_Air_Force_page.html

                      My E-mail; Gaston1_01@hotmail.com

    For me too, the recurring problem is to find someone who likes to play this game. Note that my "Advanced" variant requires having the original game rules, preferrably Avalon Hill, and the maps and counters.

    Good luck to all simmers, whether on screens or cardboard!

    Gaston.

   

   

   

   

     

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2009, 09:24:35 AM »
Oh, believe it when I say you are not boring any of the likes of us.  You have a great many tuned in to the info you have provided.  Each new post you make lends to a wealth of information that you have to share.  All of it, I hope can be proven (or disporven) and taken seriously by HTC because if what you're saying (and showing) is true then a number of aircraft models in AH2 need to be adjusted accordingly.

Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline BnZs

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »

      To answer Bnz's comments;

     I did not intend to mean that energy fighting was useless, not used, or unknown in WWII. What I meant is that it was not as dominant a tactic in WWII Europe as usually assumed, and that contrary to widespread assumptions, maneuvering combat was a lot more prevalent in Europe than in the Pacific.

The most common kind of "tactic" described in accounts is flying up behind the poor SOB and blasting him before he knew what hit him. Speed, translating into the ability to close the distance quickly before being spotted, obviously facilitates this.. Whether you want to call it boom and zoom or whatever is up to you. Personally, I think "one pass, haul a**" is more descriptive of most kills I've read about. :) I agree that it does stand to reason that pilots in Europe did not shun turning dogfights to the extent American pilots in the Pacific did, simply because the airplanes were more evenly matched in that regard.

For that matter, most "energy fighting" in the game will actually be finished by some "turn fighting" after the E fighting has given an initial advantaged position.

The FW-190A and A6M Zero are two types that generally would do poorly with Boom and Zoom tactics.

If the 190A was no better than the Zero at high speed this is the first I'm hearing of it.

Here is what Eric Brown has to say:

"The elevators proved to be moderately heavy at all speeds, particularly at above 350mph (565km/h), when they became heavy enough to impose a tactical restriction with regard to pullout from low-level dives."

Moderately heavy is distinct from being locked up. "with regard to pull out from low level dives" indicates enough elevator authority is retained to influence the course of the machine even at high IAS, provided you have the room to pull out. 350 mph is a high IAS, more than enough to inflict all the Gs the pilot can stand in the Fw-190. Above 20K, 350mph is well over 420mph.

Here is what a Navy document describing tests of a captured 190-A5 have to say:

"In general, stability and controllability of the Fw-190 in dives were satisfactory. However, at speeds above 350 knots indicated vibrations were felt and control forces became noticeable. In no case did control forces become objectionable. Diving restrictions indicated by a captured document, and as posted on the airspeed indicator in the captured airplane, were as follows:

466 mph (ind) below 10,000 feet

426 mph (ind) 10,000 feet to 16,500 feet

360 mph (ind) 16,500 to 25,000 feet"


I'd say an airplane which can be taken to 450mph TAS or more safely can be slightly useful for bnz tactics.  ;)

Later, under control forces

"Control forces in the Fw-190 were generally extremely light....Control forces become noticeable, but not objectionable, at high speeds."

For comparison, look up some of the reports on the control forces in the P-51. It would seem the Fw-190's handling in a high-speed dive was fairly competitive for its time.

As I said in an earlier post, one could perhaps argue that control forces at high speed are a little under-modeled in AHII. Or that our "pilot" simply seems inordinately strong.  ;) But that phenomenon seems to be consistently true across the board and not to be a problem with any specific plane in AHII.

A high yo-yo to slow you down to a better turn rate would be of no use in a P-51 or P-47, which turn better at higher speeds...

The primary purpose of a high yo-yo is not to slow down. That can be done through throttle management, a high-G barrel roll, deployment of drag devices, etc, and doing this while staying "saddled up" is indeed the simplest solution if one can match the bandit in front of you turn-for-turn at low speed. The primary purpose of a high yo-yo is to avoid overshooting and stay more or less in the rear quarter of a slower bandit while maintaining enough total energy that your plane can still maneuver tolerably well for a shot. As such, it can be a useful maneuver for both planes against adversaries that turn better at low speeds. Albeit, I realize at typical MA alts both planes are at a thrust ratio disadvantage against many types, thus limiting how long they can maintain superiority in vertical maneuvering before energy levels even out. This of course becomes less true at more realistic altitudes.

I don't know what you mean by "higher speeds", a P-51/47 turn with a reasonably high rate between 220-300 mph, any faster than that you are G-limited and easily dodged by a slower opponent at a more optimal maneuvering speed for a typical prop fighter. IIRC correctly, the structural maneuvering limit for the P-51 was 8gs/270mph IAS.

Another general concept like Corner Velocity simply has no practical value for numerous types; Me-109G, P-47, P-51...

Care to explain yourself here? Alot of us find the concept of corner velocity very useful, in the general sense of knowing the range where we have enough speed to turn at a decent rate without having excess speed, and also in the general sense of knowing that if we can convince our opponent to bleed his own airspeed well below corner he may become an easy target, even for a far less "maneuverable" aircraft.


and perhaps most of all the shocking weakness of the guns, due in large parts to the various buffeting oscillations of a small maneuvering aircraft.

As I alluded to earlier, the guns seem to have splashed many an enemy fighter before he knew what hit him. I mean, single rounds of .50 cal are used to disable vehicle engines at thousands of yards to this very day, and many armaments from WWII dwarf .50s. From what I've seen of gun camera footage, even concentrated .303 fire seems to have been quite nasty, provided the shooter was *close* and *on target*, to say nothing of HMG or cannon. It is no wonder that AHII players are lethal with all the practice they get. On the other side of the fence, we get posts from noobs regularly lamenting the impotence of one gun package or the other...presumably their inexperience puts them in the same boat as the average recruit in WWII.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:05:23 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline hitech

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 03:41:39 PM »
Quote
Gaston wrote;
    When you listen to WWII accounts, the "energy" (which I read as "excess relative speed") counts less than the altitude advantage and acceleration. Also the CV "peak" was not linear, limited to one, or similar in shape among these vastly idiosyncratic aircrafts. The Me-109G had two CV "peaks", with a big hole in the middle, the P-47 and P-51 had very late CV "peaks", which meant their best turn rates could not be sustained without making a descending spiral, because the engine had no reserve power at this best turn rate, so close was this to the maximum level speed.

Gaston please do a little research on the definition of Conner Velocity.

Just a few notes, no fighter in WWII had a Cv that could be maintained. All fighters had to descend in a spiral to maintain Cv.

The definition of Cv is the lowest speed at which you can pull max G. Traditionally Max G is airframe limited.

So your statement of 2 peak Cv of the 109 is sort of meaningless because by definition LOWEST means 1.

"energy"  (which I read as "excess relative speed")

Energy is and  always will be defined as Speed ^ 2 + Altitude.
Simply put you can convert speed to Altitude and Altitude to Speed. The total energy does not change when you do this conversion, with the exception of inefficiencies such as drag.

HiTech

Offline streakeagle

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2009, 12:49:28 AM »
This is the velocity versus G diagram for the P-51D from T.O. No. 1F-51D-1:


I don't see any evidence of peculiar bumps.
There is a clearly defined corner velocity which is the intersection of the lift-limit curve and the structural limit.
Contrary to the claim made here, I find that jet fighters have far more variations from the ideal norm than WW2 prop fighters due to their higher wing loadings and higher speeds: their lift curves are warped to some degree by compressibility as their corner velocities tend to approach transonic speeds.
So they don't quite follow the ideal curves where the lift limited value for n increases directly with the square of velocity.

For comparison, here is a v-n diagram for the F-4 Phantom at various angles-of-attack:


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Offline Gaston

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2009, 09:32:58 AM »
  

    I will try to answer the points of Bnz and Hitech more or less in order.

    - "No WWII aircraft could maintain CV; they all had to spiral downward". The primary maneuver recommended by Steinhoff in combat with the Me-109G against the P-51 and P-47 was the CLIMBING spiral. This was THE major advantage of the 109G over almost all foes. Steinhoff went on to point out the P-38 was a particularly dangerous foe because it was the only (American?) aircraft capable of matching or exceeding the 109's spiral climb. (Borne out by the P-38's climb rate if not its kill ratio!) Not a maximum rate turn, I know, but from lower speeds the acceleration was there...

   - "I have never heard the FW-190 was no better than the Zero at high speeds."  They were equally bad but in different ways at DIFFERENT speeds.

     Eric Brown's phrase "tactical restriction in pull-out from low-level dives" sounds mild and understated, but the story from NUMEROUS U.S. pilots sounds like this; "They could dive, but if by 8000 ft. they were not starting to pull out, you knew they were not going to make it." or "I've seen numerous times the 190s pilots try, try, try to pull-up and then just watched them pankake themselves." or " The 190s went out of control at low altitude, by contrast I've never seen a 109 go out of control like that and hit the ground."

     I think many have been mislead by the notion of very light elevators, which the FW-190 DID have. Lightness of control does not necessarily translate into a trajectory change. The Zero had immensely heavy controls at much lower dive speeds, and thus nose dived into the sea with inexperienced Kamikaze pilots. It probably WAS more survivable to pankake than nose dive, and the speeds that did this to the Zero were MUCH lower than those that doomed the 190, but the difference is definitely not great. 8000 ft. for a pull-out means a very poor high speed maneuverability.

     A bit of trivia; above 500-550 MPH TAS only the 190's nose mgs could be safely fired...

     This confusion about "light" controls led me to break-down elevator response into three parts to try to get the "feel" right for my boardgame.

     I simplified maneuverability issues into two categories; Roll rate on one side, and pitch/turning on the other.

     Roll rate is in my opinion fairly straightforward, and is very well covered in my view by a roll rate chart, with only the low speed engine torque and the high speed, always opposite, air spiral to muck things up. On some types, the drifting of the nose to one side will require the pilot to use the rudder to keep the nose straight; LEFT rudder(All Me-109s, and at an increasingly heavy left footload with speed! At lower speeds (below 250 TAS) it shifts to the opposite for the 109;  right rudder under acceleration, or climb.) or RIGHT rudder (A6M Zero, similar amplitude as the Me-109, but a very light right pedal for the luckier pilot!). This constant offset rudder position slows the roll to the side applied, increasingly so with speed, making the aircraft a less and less symmetrical roller as speed increases above 300 MPH TAS.


    Pitch/turning/loops etc... is a massively more difficult thing to figure out, as much of the data is only partial; I broke it down like this;
    
                           1-Pilot authority over elevators; FW-190A has that in spades. A6M Zero bows out early at med-high speeds(300-370 MPH)... P-51B/D is heavy, with difficulty at high speeds (420 MPH+). Spitfire excellent. P-47D excellent. Me-109G very heavy, but with unexpected increased performance at the end, if the pilot did not wait until the trim wheel was too hard... P-38 excellent, enhanced by twin handhold.

                          2-Elevator control surface authority over aircraft attitude (which I define as the initial turn-in); FW-190 excellent, P-51 poor at low speeds, growing rapidly to excellent, Spitfire average, worsening to poor, Zero outstanding, P-47D poor at low speeds, growing to average, Me-109G very good. P-38 average, growing to outstanding. Further up, the P-38 blows out in a big way if the extremely severe, low mach 0.67 limit is exceeded.

                          3-Aircraft pitch attitude authority over aircraft trajectory; FW-190 blows out in a big way, mildly at 300 MPH TAS, badly at 400 MPH TAS, Spitfire mushing worsening above 300 MPH TAS, but from such a good start that the turn rate is still good (650 ft. radius for a MK XIV at 400 MPH TAS!). Above 450 MPH TAS, a new limiting factor appear because of the feather light elevators; an unnatural, very light touch is required to avoid bending the wings... Me-109G starts very well but bows out abruptly at medium speeds only to make a huge come back at 400-420 MPH, IF the pilot thought of lightening his heavy load with the trim wheel... The P-47 bows out from the very start, mushing throughout the speed range in turns, but improving with speed, especially with the wings level, to the point of excellence for loops and pull-outs at dive speeds. The P-51D starts poorly but becomes extremely crisp, probably the absolute best, with an incredible turning radius of 450 ft. at 400 MPH TAS(!), which could probably be approached at even higher speeds, if the wartime fabric elevators did not waste the pilot's strenght. An aging Saburo Sakai flew a P-51D long after the war, and he enthused about the tight turns he could make at 500 MPH TAS(!). Metal P-51D elevators had appeared just as the war ended, too late to prevent the P-38 from beating the P-51D by a wide margin above 400 MPH, where it would also beat by a smaller margin the closely matched P-47D and Me-109G also.

    The Hellcat, Corsair and many others I do not know in detail.

    
   -"Cornering Velocity has no practical value"; I meant it has value for determining the peak rate of turn of the ennemy, but in the case of SOME WWII aircrafts, the tightest radius of turn is near 400 MPH! The Me-109G can be trimmed tail-heavy to have two peak turn rates, and though I don't know the exact figures, I don't think its 420-480 MPH turn rate is hugely wider than its 200-250 MPH turn rate. If the Mustang can turn like a Zero at 400 MPH TAS(!), then be beaten by a tail-heavy 109G at 420 MPH, surely the 109's 420 MPH turn can't be much wider than it's own first peak, or then the first peak would be Zero-like at Zero speeds; unlikely.

    Very interesting on this issue was an EXTENSIVE series of flying mock combat tests flown for historical research in.... the 1990s!

    Thanks to these tests I figured out the high speed air spiral as being opposite to the torque.

    They found, to their surprise, that the P-51D and P-47D peak turn rate was at about 400 MPH TAS; close to the maximum speed, and that for the P-51D the stall was surprisingly harsh much below that peak turn rate, to the point they found it unsuitable for much maneuvering combat at low-medium speeds. Surprised to hear this, one well-known P-51 ace commented that maybe in their day they could sense the stall better and fly closer to it. I think somewhere in between is likely. Memories are often embellished...

     I disagree the maximum rate of turn on WWII aircrafts is airframe limited. Oleg Maddox pointed out, correctly in my view, that these small WWII fighters were near-impossible to break in level turns or in any maneuver below dive speed. They would break during dive pull-outs, but NOT from level speed turns. The P-51 was rated for 12G, the Me-109 for 15. I don't know how many Gs pilots could take, 6 or 7, but it was said veterans often died in combat after a long vacation; they didn't recover quickly enough from G-induced blackouts...

    Finally for the armament effects, the Luftwaffe during the war came out with a well-known statistic; 1% of fired shells in combat would find the target, and a B-17G required 20 X 20mm shells to be brought down. The FW-190A-6 of the time carried 780 20mm shells, which gave about 8-9 rounds on target; at least the entire ammo of TWO or THREE FW-190 was the MINIMUM required... Though occasionally a well-centered burst will light-up an aircraft, remember that in all likelyhood the more boring gun camera footage will be less well-known...
I remember I thought the Luftwaffe overstated their case, but still...

    I hope I did not forget too many points.

    Gaston.
    
    

  

    

  



  
    

Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2009, 10:21:15 AM »
Gaston:
"Some may find things to quibble, but my feeling is that the above Mk XII performance is probably slightly superior to what we can expect the real, heavier, Mk XIV to do, and is in fact more a mirror image of the MK IX... The Mk IX is slightly better than the MK XIV, if the Supermarine factory test pilot is to be believed, so my guess for the MK XIV would be a range of 40° to 20°/sec. instead of 50° to 25°/sec., from 300 to 400 MPH."
The XIV has the same wing as the VIII AFAIK. The ailerons had been modified for better performance. (Hinge issue), and AFAIK the wing was stiffer.


"Note that the Mk XIV was produced in fairly modest numbers, a clear sign to my eyes that it was not seen as a huge success."

To the eyes of Jeff Quill, one of Supermarine's chief test pilots, the XIV was a quantum leap, no less.
The numbers indicate more of that WW2 was coming to an end, as well as there were many more Griffon variants.
When Hawker was introducing the Typhoon, there was some speculation if the Spitfire would be phased out due to insufficient top speed. But the Griffon cured that, and the Mk XII proved to be faster than the Typhoon.

"Let's disgress for a moment, and consider the strange fact that a MK IX augmented to +25 lbs (colored 150 fuel) will OUT-CLIMB a MK XIV at +18 lbs, yet fails to gain 1 MPH from this extra 350 hp(!), being 40 MPH slower than the +18lbs MK XIV, despite having nearly the same power: ?!! : Radiator design, supposedly..."
Apples and oranges. It will have the same clock to 20K...maybe. (5 minutes).
Now, the prop is quite different BTW.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Karnak

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2009, 11:46:17 AM »
Gaston,

The Spitfire Mk IX at +25lbs boost is significantly faster than the Spitfire Mk IX at +18lbs boost, just as the Spitfire Mk XIV is faster at +21lbs boost than at +18lbs boost.

I don't know where you are getting claims that the +25lbs boost made no difference in the Mk IX's speed.

Mind you, that Mk IX at +25lbs boost was still a bit slower than the Mk XIV at +18lbs boost.
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