Author Topic: Correct way to play AH2?  (Read 5000 times)

Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2009, 08:01:47 PM »
As for your analogy about someone big dealing it because the can vultch the same newby over and over, I find it insulting. If that is what you think I do....we have misjudge each other

NB.....
Just to set things straight..... I am Definitely not talking about you in that quote.

Some one else gets that honor.

You have been a great opponent as well as a wingman.

Sorry you thought I was talking about you. None of my post were directed to or about you...again someone else has that honor
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>

Offline SKJohn

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2009, 08:28:12 PM »
ok, WHAT THE HECK IS THE BIG DEAL WITH THE HOs. I understand its a "newb" move and what have you but, my god you people are whiners, if you see a plane coming straight for you with better guns you move out of the way, I don't know how many times a game i get out fo the way of ho-er, its usally not all that difficult.

and who wrote the rule book and said you not allowed to do that, if you have the shot take it, thats the point of the game, i personally dont blatantly fly straight into people because thats not how I fly, but in the course of a furball with someone if a head on shot presents itself im going to take it because that would mean I get a big hit on him, maybe even shooting him down, thus achieving the purpose of dogfighting shooting the other guy down


Even though the HEAD-ON shot was used quite extensively in WWII - (see biographies about Bong and other aces . . .), I think that the main reason it is frowned on in AH is because back in the "Good 'ole" days of Air Warrior, HO shots were almost totally disabled or programmed to have a very low damage result.  THen when AW folded and the old "vets" came to AH, they were conditioned not to HO, and frowned on those who did.  As the newer players entered the game, and tried to emulate their heroes, it became an unwritten rule that HOing was bad.  Even though people harp about "realism", you aren't supposed to use a tactic that was actually used in WWII.
Yes, the fights are more fun if you don't HO and actually try to use ACM and your plane's strong points to get behind and shoot down the other guy,but to call it "dweebish" or "lame" is kind of ridiculous when it was used in real-life.

Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2009, 08:35:06 PM »
The Thach weave was a HO manuver.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/ThachWeave.html

The summer of 1941, Thach's Fighting Three went ashore at NAS San Diego to reequip with Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats. This gave Thach much more opportunity to test new ideas. He liked to simulate various flying formations by laying out matchsticks on the kitchen table of his home in nearby Coronado--often a relaxing diversion before retiring for the night. The next day he would try his ideas in the the air. While he was at San Diego, information reached Thach from the Fleet Air Tactical Unit describing the new Japanese Zero carrier fighter. The FATU Intelligence Bureau of 22 September 1941 gave the Zero a top speed of between 345 and 380mph, a cruise of between 210 and 250mph, and an armament of two 20mm cannons and two 7.7mm machineguns. Thach also may have seen other estimates, emanating from Claire Chennault in China. Chennault possessed firsthand experience in battling the Zero. he rated its top speed at 322mph, but more important, warned fo the Mitsubishi's incredible manueverability and high climb rate. At atny rate, the estimates sketched a formidable opponent, if one gave any credence to them. Thach was inclined to credit the reports he saw, as he felt they appeared to have been written by a fighter pilot. It was not comforting that the potential energy might already possess a fighter that could outperform the F4F-3s just reaching the squadron.

"Faced with the possibility of encountering fighters that were faster, more maneuverable and swift climbers, Thach began thinking of tactics to overcome these vital advantages. Out came the matchsticks in earnest. He concentrated on developing a cruise formation that would offer protection en route to battle, the time when his fighters would be most vunerable to surprise attack from above. In dealing with an attacking fighter, the defender has two basic options: turn away and run, or head into his assailant to counterattack or try spoiling his aim. In fighting a Zero such as described, Thach knew it would be suicidal to break away unless the defender had a hell of a long lead. Thus the crux of the problem lay in developing a maneuver in which the defender, in deciding to stay and fight, could line up a shot on the attacker. Because of extensive training in deflection shooting, Thach felt confident his pilots could score hits, even if offered only snap bursts at fleeting targets.

"Thach made his breakthrough when he decided to deploy the two sectons abreast of each other at a distance at least equal to the tactical diameter (turning radius) of the F4F Wildcat. Once he assumed this formation, he saw many opportunities for the defender. Being abreast of one another, the sections had good lookout, particularly over the tail of the opposite pair. Thach evolved a lookout doctrine in which the section on the right watch above and behind the left squadron, and, similarly, the pair on the left observed the tail of the right section. They could warn each other of imminent attacks by signals, hastend by the fact they were already looking in each other's direction!

" In terms of dealing with attacks, all four planes could fire on enemy fighters executing opposite (head-on) attacks. If the enemy charged in from above and behind, one section could turn to shoot at any fighters bouncing the other section. Thach quickly determined that the best procedure was to have the section that spotted an attacker going after the other section, itself turn immediately toward the threatened compatriots. This would be the signal to alert the other section and would also get the two counterattacking planes moving in the porper direction for a shot at the enemy.Seeing the other section turn toward them, the section in dangeer would know they were about to be attacked. Their reaction would be to turn toward the other section and set up a scissors with them. This maneuver would help spoil the aim of the attackers and give the defenders time to work thier counter. If the attacker pulled out early, then the unattacked section would get a side shot at him. If the attacker maneuvered to follow his targets around in their turn, then the unattacked section could line up a head-on run. Now this was mutual defense!
" Thach was very excited and eager to present his discovery to the squadron."

The First Team

Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbour to Midway

pp480-481

John B Lundstrom

Naval Institute Press
 
 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:06:34 PM by stickpig »
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>

Offline CAV

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2009, 08:36:45 PM »
Quote
So, can someone tell me the correct way to interact in the game.



The correct way is to have fun....... After all these years of playing flight sims I still do. I started back in the dark days of Airwarrior at $5.00+ an hour. I look at AH today and I see all the things we was asking way back them....

  Arena's with 100's of players.... A butt load of planes to fly..... Ships that move..... Many tanks that can maned and fight..... Maps with lots of terrain to fight over (and if you like, you can make maps too).... Vox... All kinds of stuff to bomb, from the other players to, field targets, tanks, factories, buildings within a city, Trains, Convoys, and Barges.... Ships.... And you can capture territory through the use of air, land and sea power winning the map reset.

Why would I not have fun.

HTC placed few rules on the game and I like it that way. I do have few rules of my own.

I try to be one of the good guys in the game, but don't care if you like the the way I fight.

I do not like FT/TT in the main arena's, but i don't %$# with them. I play by the "rules" if I play there.

I never tuned to CH. 200.

And never feel the need to go to the DA if someone is mad at me.

CAVALRY
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2009, 08:50:13 PM »
The fact is that if we were to set up some sort of "HOing" contest between various fighters, 90% of the time it would end up with one plane destroyed and the other either destroyed or too damaged to continue effectively. Therefore HOing unless you are in a situation where you are a dead man flying anyway is an illogical and unproductive way to fight. THAT is why it is so frowned upon...because if everybody went for it all the time there would be almost no fights and most people's sorties would be very short.

 8 .303s is too dangerous a gun package to fly right into and the firepower levels go up from there. People who HO habitually either are so bad that is the only way they can go 1/1 on the K/D ratio, or, more commonly, they are banking on the other person trying to avoid mutually-assured-destruction so they have a chance of a cheap so-called "FQ" shot kill.

Keep in mind they didn't have icons and on a true head-on course, an airplane could go from "What's that speck on the windscreen" to filling the windscreen "Oh %@%$!!!" and past in a twinkling, giving far less time to observe and decide to HO in any accurate manner.


Even though the HEAD-ON shot was used quite extensively in WWII - (see biographies about Bong and other aces . . .), I think that the main reason it is frowned on in AH is because back in the "Good 'ole" days of Air Warrior, HO shots were almost totally disabled or programmed to have a very low damage result.  THen when AW folded and the old "vets" came to AH, they were conditioned not to HO, and frowned on those who did.  As the newer players entered the game, and tried to emulate their heroes, it became an unwritten rule that HOing was bad.  Even though people harp about "realism", you aren't supposed to use a tactic that was actually used in WWII.
Yes, the fights are more fun if you don't HO and actually try to use ACM and your plane's strong points to get behind and shoot down the other guy,but to call it "dweebish" or "lame" is kind of ridiculous when it was used in real-life.

"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2009, 08:51:21 PM »
After re reading this thread once again, I'd like to add to things like the rinse and repeat on taking dwn ords.

(I need to use this as an example NB  again this is not directed towards ya)

Yes people do over and over runs to take dwn ords..... but why? Usually is stems from cause and effect.

One county is running massive bomber raids, dropping everthing in sight going from base to base. How do you counter this? By making run after run to take dwn their ords.

Another example.....massive GV raids over and over......How do you counter? Run after run to take dwn troops.

So really the base taking aspect is the cause of gameplay that's called lame.

So lets get rid of everything except fighters and no base taking.

Is this what we want?
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2009, 08:55:41 PM »
The Thach weave was a HO manuver.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/ThachWeave.html

No, it was not a maneuver to force a Head On engagement or shot.



Here is a video of the maneuver as illustrated by some History Channel show
Thach Weave

Here is another diagram with a 4 plane formation


Another diagram to show the maneuver and you can clearly see that it in no way is a head on maneuver.



ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2009, 08:59:41 PM »
Even though the HEAD-ON shot was used quite extensively in WWII - (see biographies about Bong and other aces . . .)


At least in the PTO, US pilots were taught that the easiest way to make a Japanese fighter break was to go for a head on shot.  The reason was that the Japanese pilots actually thought lowly of using Head On shots, thought it was beneath the 'samurai fighting spirit' and would usually break off at the first signs of a head on attempt by US planes.

Kind of interesting that the country that most personified the 'furballer's mentality' were the Japanese.


ack-ack
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Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline RipChord929

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2009, 09:07:37 PM »
Well, I try to avoid Ho'in people, but sometimes that is the
only way they come at you.. Repeatedly!!!

If circumstances put me nose to nose with someone, I throw
the nose dip a couple times to let them know I'm a Non Ho guy...
But geez, they do it anyway.. Not all, but MOST do...

I try to get under their nose, and throw in a barrel roll to
dodge the gunfire, cross my fingers just for luck.. Then
a hard 180 hook onto their tail.. Works most times, not always..

But when ya drop your nose, it shows a HUGE 3/4 target aspect
to them.. A good shot won't miss it.. They call it a deflection shot..
Hmmm, whatever!!! I still call it a Ho... Because it resulted from a Ho..

Lately, I just Ho'em back, doesn't matter anyway.. But then it sucks
when the guy turns out to be a good flyer, not a weenie, and I Ho'ed
him... Embarrassing!!  So I text him, apologize, and tell him that, "If I
knew it was you, I wouldn't have taken the Ho shot"..
What else can ya do?

You tell me what is the correct way to play out that scenario..

RC

 
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"Yeah, a gut bustin, mother lovin, NAVY war!!!"

Online The Fugitive

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2009, 09:26:30 PM »
-Have respect for your opponent, 
-Don't assume things that aren't true.
-Honourable exchanges win or lose.
- and above all else have FUN.

Bruv said it the best. Those two words that I bolded cover just about everything. The only other thing I would add is

-Fight the fight

Don't cut corners to "game the game". Use whats there the way it was intended. Lancs don't dive bomb, HO are lame, and spawn camping is too.

Offline NoBaddy

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2009, 09:51:50 PM »
After re reading this thread once again, I'd like to add to things like the rinse and repeat on taking dwn ords.

(I need to use this as an example NB  again this is not directed towards ya)

Yes people do over and over runs to take dwn ords..... but why? Usually is stems from cause and effect.

One county is running massive bomber raids, dropping everthing in sight going from base to base. How do you counter this? By making run after run to take dwn their ords.

Another example.....massive GV raids over and over......How do you counter? Run after run to take dwn troops.

So really the base taking aspect is the cause of gameplay that's called lame.

So lets get rid of everything except fighters and no base taking.

Is this what we want?

Stick...

I've never actually seen the "defensive" ord take down you are talking about. What I see over and over and over and over...(you get the picture :)) is invariably the prelude to a gv attack. One guy comes in and kills the vh and ords (dying in the process) and will be back rolling to town with his buds in a few minutes. It isn't about a fight. It is about insuring that there is no fight to prevent them from capturing the field.

I see it as a bit like the steriods/baseball stuff from the late '90s. Taking steriods wasn't strictly against the rules. But, certainly was against the spirit of the rules. It did give a competitive advantage to the players that didn't do it. For me...it qualifies as "lame". :)

Once again, base taking isn't lame. Planes and/or ground vehicles aren't lame. It's people and how they chose to use these things that can be lame.

Having played the game with and against you, I did find it a bit surprising that you chose the side of this argument that you did. I don't remember anyone with a clue ever trying to accuse you of lame gameplay. So, I can only guess that you are defending someone else. If that is the case, I can only suggest that you teach them to play the game with the same spirit and class that you do....and the "problem" will go away.  :rock

NoBaddy (NB)

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"Ego is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity."

Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2009, 10:41:17 PM »
No, it was not a maneuver to force a Head On engagement or shot.

(Image removed from quote.)

Here is a video of the maneuver as illustrated by some History Channel show
Thach Weave

Here is another diagram with a 4 plane formation
(Image removed from quote.)

Another diagram to show the maneuver and you can clearly see that it in no way is a head on maneuver.
(Image removed from quote.)


ack-ack

http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/appendix/appendixfourteen_usvftac.html


Fighting Three and the Beam Defense

LCDR John S. Thach was already considered one of the Navy's better pilots and tacticians in the summer of 1941. However, it was what he did after that that turned him into a legend not only within the Navy but within the entire military aviation community.

In July of that year Thach and the rest of Fighting Three were in San Diego to exchange their Brewster F2A-3s for Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats. While in San Diego Thach learned of Japan's new carrier based fighter, the Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero. Information from the Fleet Air Tactical Unit reported phenomenal performance: a top speed of between 345 and 380 mph, cruising speeds of between 210 and 250 mph equipped with 20mm and 7.7mm guns. Reports coming from the American Volunteer Group in China showed less speed (about 320 mph), but told of an exceptional rate of climb (3500 feet/minute) and maneuverability. This worried Thach because his potential enemy already had a plane that could out fly what he was just getting.

Thach had already developed a habit of using matchsticks to test new ideas. With the news from FATU and China, he spent many a night with matchsticks spread out over his kitchen table. He was most interested in developing a new formation that would counter the Zero's maneuverability and allow the F4F to get shots while maintaining a defensive position.



Even before coming up with his "beam defense" position, Thach came to the conclusion that two two-plane sections were better equipped to engage fighters than divisions of six. Armed with that, Thach considered several ideas:

Four-plane divisions in close formation.

Four-plane division with sections split one behind the other.

Neither of these options were successful. The closeness of the tight formation offered little advantage over a six-plane division that was already in use. The split section formation was better. It would require the attackers pick only one section to attack. That left them vulnerable to counterattack by the un-attacked section. However, the sections were still too close together to provide effective mutual defense.

Thach was determined to find a solution to the Zero problem. And he did just that. Thach deployed the sections abreast of each other at a distance that represented the turning radius of the aircraft. Immediately he saw the incredible possibilities of his new formation.



Because of the position of the fighters, the opposing sections had an excellent view of the other, particularly the vulnerable tail. And, since they were already looking at each other, hand signals would be readily seen and reacted upon.



When fighters engaged from the rear, the one section should be able to shoot the attackers off the other. However, to take advantage of this and make best use of the "beam defense position," Thach needed to develop a lookout doctrine. This doctrine would differentiate the "Thach Weave" from later and less formal tactics (called "bastard weaves" collectively). Since each section was already looking behind their opposite section, the easiest way to warn of an attack on the opposite section was to simply turn towards it. Upon seeing the opposite section turning towards them, the attacked section would turn into them and set up a scissors. At this point, the attacker has two choices- press home his attack and risk a head-on attack, or break off and offer a long range shot by the un-attacked sections.
The idea worked well with match sticks. Now he needed a real world test. In this test Thach and three others would fly F4Fs with their throttles wired to reduce their power usage. Four additional F4Fs under LT(jg) Edward H. "Butch" O'Hare, a future Medal of Honor winner, would oppose Thach, with no restrictions on their performance. This would give O'Hare's men a performance advantage over Thach that would roughly simulate what he could expect going up against Japanese Zeroes.

O'Hare and his men tried virtually every type of attack and were repeatedly discouraged by Thach and his countermoves. In spite of flying a better airplane, O'Hare simply could not get in a good shot without risking the defenders getting an equally good shot. Thach had hit upon the most significant new tactic of aerial combat.

Despite the obvious advantages in this new formation and doctrine, ComAirBatFor did not accept the new tactic into other squadrons. Halsey did, however, give his official blessing to Thach and Fighting 3 to continue to use it.

During Fighting Three's only combat tour previous to Midway, in the spring of 1942, the squadron encountered no aerial fighter opposition and therefore did not get a chance to test out the "Thach Weave." After leaving Lexington in April, Fighting Three was reorganized, and Thach lost most of his veteran pilots. Necessitated with rebuilding his squadron from square one and only five pilots permanently assigned, he began teaching his charges the basics at NAS Kaneohe in May. With rookie ENS Robert A. M. Dibb and experienced NAPs from Fighting Two, MACHs Doyle C. Barnes and Tom F. Cheek, Thach began his training. With Thach and Dibb comprising one section and Barnes and Cheek the other, two Army Air Force P-39's were assigned the task of "attacking" the F4F-4s of Fighting Three. These two pilots experienced the same frustration that O'Hare had several months before.

The third week of May brought a virtual end to the training on the "beam defense position" with the addition of seven new Ensigns to the squadron. Instead, Thach needed to concentrate on teaching basics of gunnery and fighter tactics. However, he did get in a few sessions, and added to his lookout doctrine. If necessary, the rookies were told to radio, "There is one on your tail!" to set up the scissors with the other section.

The frantic absorption of many Fighting Forty-Two veterans into VF-3 meant that Thach had virtually no time to teach his new tactic, and no hope of employing it in large numbers on the upcoming cruise to Midway on Yorktown. However, he did hope to fly an escort mission comprised of two divisions of four, with the second division led by MACH Cheek. This way, the two experienced division leaders could use the radio to instruct the other two pairs by radio. As it turned out, Thach led six fighters, one division of four that flew top cover for Torpedo Three, and one section led by Cheek that flew close escort for the torpedo planes. As described in more detail on Midway, June 4, Thach's division, after the initial loss of one plane, slipped into the weave. In spite of terrible odds and an inexperienced wingman, Thach and his men shot down four A6Ms and damaged at least two more without further loss. Considering the three men were outnumbered five or six-to-one, the results were spectacular and demonstrated conclusively that the "Thach Weave" worked. Cheek's section shot down two additional Zeroes and damaged others, even though they were not able to use the weave.

After being proven at Midway, Thach went on to work with the Bureau of Aeronautics (or BuAer) to add his "beam defense position" into official doctrine. While best used with two two-plane sections, the "Thach Weave" could be employed by anything from individual aircraft to divisions of four planes. The keys were flying abreast, proper spacing, proper lookout doctrine and scissoring at the right moment. Throughout 1942 and 1943, Thach and Jimmy Flatley, who fell in love with the weave at Santa Cruz in October 1942, (Flatley and three other pilots, having returned from a strike escort mission on 26 October, used the weave at 50 percent power to keep Zeroes off until the fuel starved fighters could land safely on Enterprise) began training a new generation of pilots in the use of the "Thach Weave."

« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:02:04 PM by stickpig »
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>

Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2009, 10:54:51 PM »
Having played the game with and against you, I did find it a bit surprising that you chose the side of this argument that you did. I don't remember anyone with a clue ever trying to accuse you of lame gameplay. So, I can only guess that you are defending someone else. If that is the case, I can only suggest that you teach them to play

NB,

Things have gotton twisted a bit here lol

My whole argument was That there is no winning the argument of who right or wrong when it comes to game play.  Some where in this whole mess it seems that I am taking sides or defending a certain type of game play. Which I'm not and sorry if came across that way.

Now I've gotta laugh cause all I was trying to say I was getting so tired of Shuffler going on and on about the right way to play the game this weekend and that being no one is going to agree to whats right or wrong _Please shut up about it already.

From Sat night through super bowl time Sunday , every time I logged back on .....well it was like I had never left....... the same conversation and comments were still going. I was getting down right annoying.

Like I said in my 1st post, I get on line to escape that kind of endless complaining.... by Sun afternoon I had had anASSfull of it.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:10:06 PM by stickpig »
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2009, 12:38:34 AM »
lol Stick I never said right way or wrong way.. that is what you said. I never said anything to you in the first place. I said something to the two folks dive bombing in 24s. I told them they should learn to fly them proper and not have to dive bomb and that dive bombing is lame in 24s. Then you stepped in and started defending them. So what NB said is actually fact and not some misunderstanding.

You know you can say what you do all the time... but it is actually what you do that people will go by.

Before this I never had any cross words with you but I have to disagree with your stand on supporting lame play. It is not healthy for the community as a whole.
80th FS "Headhunters"

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Offline stickpig

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Re: Correct way to play AH2?
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2009, 01:43:42 PM »
Going to say it just one more time for those with hard hearing.....
I really don't care how any one plays the game. I won't agree or disagree.

Because depending on who you talk to both ways are right and at the same time both ways are wrong. But you will never have both sides agree.So why waste the energy discussing it over and over?

That's all I was trying to convey this whole time.

One side will say killing sheep is lame because..... Then the other side will say killing sheep isn't lame because.....

Both sides whole heartily believe that their reasoning is correct and neither side will budge from their opinion.

So why even try to discuss it?

Again this was the only point I was trying to make.
Theyll only give you one chance, Better get it right first time. And the game youre playing
If you lose you gotta pay, If you make just one wrong move Youll get blown away
Expect no mercy  <Nazareth>

"Stay in the manned ack... When your in a plane you are a danger to the ground"  <Norad>