Hog FM

[ra]

This is not a Hog-C rant.  I've been flying the 2 Hogs lately to get ready for carrier ops and I notice that they need LEFT rudder during takeoff and climb.  What's up with that?

ra

[RAM]

its that all planes have torque effects screwed-they have been severely turned down from 1.03-, starting from the Hog and the tiffie ,going thru all the planeset and ending in the P38.

(I include in the "torque" definition all hte 5 effects of the spinning propeller)

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-22-2000).]

[LLv34_Snefens]

Hmm, that's not what I notice when I take off.

I didn't test all planes, but when I tried the ones you mention, I needed right rudder in the planes, except the typhoon (and yak) who need ledt.

P38 didn't need either.

[ra]

Maybe it's my rudder calibration, I need to use about 1/2 left trim while flying the Hog.

ra

[ra]

Nope, I tested offline in F3 view from a few feet back so I could watch the rudder.  I started the engine and hit full power and WEP with my feet off the rudder pedals.  The plane accellerated with a slight pull the the right so I corrected with a little left rudder.  After tucking up the gear I hit auto climb and the rudder settled a few degrees left of center.  This is not right.  I knew torque(etc.) was under-modeled, but I didn't know it was anti-modeled.

ra

[airspro]

I tryed this also , hmmm .

 When in Combat Trim you have to use right rudder when building speed (just like Snefens said) for most of the runway (full gas and 2 1000 lbs bombs) then at the very end used a little left when lifting off .

Next I tried it with Combat Trim off and all trims centered . Yep ra was just like you stated , had to use just a little left rudder on take off .

I other words , I had to use more rudder to get off the deck with Combat Trim on .

spro

[trey]

ive gotten lazy anymore. I just use the autotakeoff and point it in the direction i want to climbout....meanwhile go to the kitchen, fix coffee, bathroom...chase kids

Just saying though that while i agree with the torque issue, it aint a biggie with me

ammo

[ra]

I never use combat trim.  

It feels weird having to constantly hold left rudder while flying the Hog.  If you watch footage of F4U's taking off from carriers you can see the rudder is almost full to the right.  

I hope we get torque back so planes like the P-38 can exploit their strengths.  It may make stallfights more realistic too.  

I'm beginning to see a need for easymode.  If HTC is afraid of making the FM too demanding, an easymode may be the way to allow veteran players the realism they want while not scaring off the newbies.  Create an easymode with no torque, a limited maximum AoA, and a 5 1/2 G limit.  This would make an easier but restricted FM for newbies.  I don't know why everyone went postal the last time HTC mentioned the possibility of an easymode.

ra

[LLv34_Snefens]

No Combat trim when I tested either.

Don't look at the rudder to see if it's centered, open up the joystick menu. When I did this test I found that my rudder actually is not centered when untouched. I needed to put a ever so gently pressure on one of the pedals to keep it completely centered (this is just for my setup of course, but someone might have it similar).

I only centered my rudder and looked what happend when I posted first. They would all swing to the left (except typh, yak and p38)
I didn't test it at about 150 mph, but it is true that when speed has built up I need to put a little left rudder.

Also remove the wind. This might be obvious, but it could have slipped.

[ra]

I re-calibrated my rudder pedals so it was perfectly centered, and that got rid of part of the problem.  The Hog pulled a bit to the left during a WEP start on the runway.  But as soon as I reached flying speed it started needing left rudder.  So during most of the flight I needed to keep quite a bit of left trim to keep the ball centered, even during a WEP climbout at 160mph. It required about as much left trim during flight as the Tiffy or Yak.

The Yak and Tiffie both pulled right on takeoff, and needed left trim for climb.  The P-38 could take off with no input except up elevator trim, staying lined up on the runway the whole time.

Simulate a carrier wave off by going to full power in the Hog just before landing (rudder and aileron trim centered).  There is almost no tendency to torque roll.  This means that the Hog handles too easily at low-speed hi-power flight, giving it an ability to stallfight better than it should.  The other planes are probably the same way.  IMHO more torque would make the FM more realistic, interesting, and challenging.

ra

[Jekyll]

 

This means that the Hog handles too easily at low-speed hi-power flight, giving it an ability to stallfight better than it should. The other planes are probably the same way. IMHO more torque would make the FM more realistic, interesting, and challenging.

Yup.  Possibly my biggest issue with 1.04 is the lack of realistic torque.  The P-38 is unfairly handicapped because the 2000hp + monsters handle very sweetly at low speed/high AoA.

I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight.

Put back the torque and watch the complaints about the Nik, CHog etc magically disappear  

------------------
=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps

[danish]

"I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight."

Try the G10 ;=)

Otherwise agree 100%

danish

[senna]

I agree that the current FM is lacking in torque modeling, IMO. I liked the more realistic torque modeling of the older releases as it made the flight sim a sheer enjoyment just to fly with or without combat. I have to admit that the more real it gets the more tiring it gets as well but I personally would rather see it realistic.

My uncle was a A-1 skyraider pilot during the Vietnam war. I let him try AH out and while trying to take off in a F4u1C, he crashed (he's old ok, its been 30 years . Reason why he crashed was by habbit, he applied full right rudder and not enough power so he danced around the field like the lawnmower man then did a 360 and broke the strut. Hum, he would have liked the torque modeling of the older releases.

-- senna

 

Originally posted by Jekyll:
Yup.  Possibly my biggest issue with 1.04 is the lack of realistic torque.  The P-38 is unfairly handicapped because the 2000hp + monsters handle very sweetly at low speed/high AoA.

I cannot remember the last time a high powered aircraft snapped out on me in a low, slow fight.

Put back the torque and watch the complaints about the Nik, CHog etc magically disappear  

[F4UDOA]

Does anyone in this thread have any documentation regarding rudder trim required on takeoff for a F4U?

I'll give you a hint. From the pilots manual for the F4U.

6 degrees nose right.
6 degrees right wing down.

Quote

"The left wing tends to be slightly heavy just as the airplane becomes airborne due to high torque reaction. If the aileron tab is set approxamately 6 degrees right wing down before start, and if the airplane is not lifted prematurely, this effect can be avoided."

This sounds very similar to the AH FM to me.
You should give Pyro more credit on these FM's. Remember, he has all of the pilots manuals and documention. He doesn't do this from what he heard on the history channel.


By contrast the required take off run for an F4U is much shorter than there land based counter parts. As well are the requirements for low speed handling more strict than a land based airplane.

For example the minimum take off runs with zero head wind, fully loaded.

F4U-1D= 680FT.
P-38L= 1350FT.

If it couldn't fly at low speed then taking off at this short a distance would be impossible.

[Toad]

F4U,

If you are going to repeatedly inject fact into these discussions we are going to have to censure you!