Author Topic: Aircraft crash in WNY  (Read 3892 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2009, 05:13:24 PM »
People all over the country in dentists offices barber shops and other waiting rooms are giving their opinions yet you expect people from flight simulator games to remain silent?   :rolleyes:



This old adage comes to mind:

"if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?"


I wonder what they are saying in the CIA break room...?
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Offline humble

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2009, 05:44:17 PM »
Nice to see the experts are hashing this one out...   :rolleyes:

Actually to the people that fly the Dash-8 400 it is a pretty big deal. A lot of the people posting to various blogs are flying the thing every day, often in similar conditions...here is another one from today...


As a q4 Captain, I am very surprised that the aircraft is reported to have been flying at 137kts clean with increased ref on. By coincidence (or maybe not) I flew a sector today with 52 pax - landing weight 24.5 tonnes, and the flap 15 vref non icing was 117kts. Bug up the inc ref and that gives 137 kts. Fly at that speed without the flap it relates to and the speed tape would be in the red and the sps wouldn't have been far from activating. Add a bit of turbulence too....


Stick push activation in this scenario would have added to the increased aoa of the tail associated with coincident flap selection and put a tail stall much more to the fore in the way of eventualities.

Our manual states that in icing conditions the minimum clean speed is 190kts.




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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2009, 06:14:08 PM »
I wonder what they are saying in the CIA break room...?

Are you trying to accuse the CIA of causing this? Now thats a leap!  :huh
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Offline TwentyFo

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2009, 06:57:17 PM »

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2009, 07:00:02 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69trak6zrQ

Listen to the first few minutes of this breifing.

Think about it.  Especially the next time you want to speculate.  The lives were real and the NTSB will do their jobs.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2009, 07:03:29 PM »
Speculation is not a criminal act and there is nothing wrong with considering possibilities.  :rolleyes:
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Offline Dawger

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2009, 07:10:01 PM »
Bad stuff happens.

Most of the time the bad stuff is preventable.

There are two types of people, those who realize that the bad stuff could have been prevented if they had engaged in better head work and those who think other people should prevent them from getting hurt from their own bad head work.

As a young pilot I engaged in lots of examples of bad head work. Some of it makes me laugh. Some of it wakes me up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat.

Its amazing how your brain digs up ancient mistakes and reminds you how close you came to pushing daisies.

The NTSB wants to mandate technological fixes for what is really a failure of human beings to accept responsibility for their own actions.

There is weather that will kill you if you let it. I suspect that, in the end, this will be the case. It is quite likely that this flight will turn out to be a series of decisions that led to disaster. The public focus will be on the last decision. The one closest to the tragedy.

The accident is truly prevented long before that. It starts with inculcating pilots with a certain attitude.

Pilots have begun to believe the marketing slogan. Flying is safe

That is pure marketing. Flying is incredibly dangerous. Just think about it. In the hands of amateurs aircraft would crash willy-nilly.

But the public needs the marketing slogans or they would never fly.

Pilots on the other hand need to be aware that every minute of every flight that flying is extremely hazardous. Only their good decisions make the difference.

It seems to me that Roselawn and most probably this accident were the result of pilots believing the marketing. I know for SURE the crew in Roselawn was less than concentrated on safety of flight. Don't ask me how, I'm not going to tell you. You will just have to trust that as fact.

Maybe I'm doing a disservice to my recently dead brethren but I'd be where they are now except for my own good luck. I've done my share of very stupid things in airplanes. I just happen to be lucky.

If the end result is new regulations for fancier ice protection and new procedures for when and where to configure flaps, gear, trim etc etc etc then we will know another band-aid is being put on the problem.

Not that I'm against better equipment and safer procedures but until the airlines focus on pilot's putting the responsibility for safety on themselves it really isn't going to change things.

Offline humble

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2009, 07:49:27 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69trak6zrQ

Listen to the first few minutes of this breifing.

Think about it.  Especially the next time you want to speculate.  The lives were real and the NTSB will do their jobs.

The comments were specific to the photos of the crash site. As for the accident itself speculation is normal, especially since it appears that the plane was flying at roughly 40 knts under recognized minimum speed for the conditions at hand (60 if they felt icing was severe). SOP in moderate ice is a manual approach and a "hot" landing. While other factors may contribute this has to be a factor...

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Offline Golfer

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2009, 08:35:32 PM »
SOP in moderate ice is a manual approach and a "hot" landing. While other factors may contribute this has to be a factor...

The words "Manual Approach" and "'Hot' Landing" do not appear in any FOM, GOM or SOP volume I've ever used.

Now speaking in general directed at not one individual:

Be mindful of the things you say because while you might think it's a good idea to repeat what you read or heard in a media report, the newsmedia gets so very few things right that it's almost criminal to watch these talking heads butcher their reports.  Watching an NTSB briefing where the investigative body says one thing and then the reporters draw the 180º conclusion and report the opposite of what was said makes me wonder how wrong they get other subjects.  Uneducated speculation not only displays very little tact it goes past that for those who operate in a professional capacity to the point where it seems disrespectful.

Not long ago someone posted here something to the effect of they almost died in an airline crash when all that happened was a failure of a fairly simple item which warranted a return to the airport.  The newsmedia oversensationalizing what they don't know can be downright dangerous when they get their hands on a few key words.  That's all they have now are a few key words and they're using them to scare the public and sell adspace & airtime.  The NTSB will do their jobs, the folks who need to will learn from the accident and people will continue to try to find the cheapest airline ticket available.

All that said I'd ride on a DHC-8-100/200/300/400 tomorrow and not think anything of it.  But what do I know...

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2009, 08:52:13 PM »
Actually to the people that fly the Dash-8 400 it is a pretty big deal. A lot of the people posting to various blogs are flying the thing every day, often in similar conditions...here is another one from today...


As a q4 Captain, I am very surprised that the aircraft is reported to have been flying at 137kts clean with increased ref on. By coincidence (or maybe not) I flew a sector today with 52 pax - landing weight 24.5 tonnes, and the flap 15 vref non icing was 117kts. Bug up the inc ref and that gives 137 kts. Fly at that speed without the flap it relates to and the speed tape would be in the red and the sps wouldn't have been far from activating. Add a bit of turbulence too....


Stick push activation in this scenario would have added to the increased aoa of the tail associated with coincident flap selection and put a tail stall much more to the fore in the way of eventualities.

Our manual states that in icing conditions the minimum clean speed is 190kts.






Humble, as Golfer said, I'll hop on one tomorrow, and not worry a lick.  You are a captain, that's great.  Are you a trained accident investigator?  Were you there?  Did you review, in detail, the flight review tapes? 

I am betting a no on any of that last sentence.  That said, stop speculating.  If there is a true flight issue, the FAA will make a ruling and advise accordingly.

Anyways, back to the speculation game... whose next?
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2009, 08:53:10 PM »
Are you trying to accuse the CIA of causing this? Now thats a leap!  :huh

Ohh, I am sorry, I meant the top secret clandestine ops F-16 flight ops lounge. 
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2009, 09:03:42 PM »



And the point of this picture is...?

Offline TwentyFo

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2009, 09:10:40 PM »
And the point of this picture is...?

That the technology of this plane is far out-dated. Heads up displays and glass cockpit, what a piece of crap.

Seriously, think it would help for people to see what the inside of the cockpit looked like. When most people not in the aviation world hear a the word 'turbo-prop' they assume that its a piece of crap.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 09:14:37 PM by TwentyFo »
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2009, 09:15:37 PM »
No way in gods green earth or satans hot hell is Humble a Q400 captain.  That's a copy/paste from PPrune from a European Q400 pilot.

Offline Serenity

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Re: Aircraft crash in WNY
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2009, 09:19:40 PM »
That the technology of this plane is far out-dated. Heads up displays and glass cockpit, what a piece of crap.

Seriously, think it would help for people to see what the inside of the cockpit looked like. When most people not in the aviation world hear a the word 'turbo-prop' they assume that its a piece of crap.

Um... okay... not sure how that ever entered into the conversation but okay...