Aircraft crash in WNY

[Golfer]

The Dash-8 is NOT IIRC fly-by-wire, nor is any other commercial aircraft. Fly-by-wire (Assuming we're thinking of the same thing) is reserved for the relaxed-stability fighter jets.

That's incorrect.  The E-170/190 has a Fly-by-Wire Tail (rudder and elevator) and I was told originally indended to be a full FBW system.  The ailerons while intended to be FBW for ease of certification became hydro-mechanical with no physical linkage between the yoke and ailerons.  Movement of the yoke left or right actually controlled hydraulic actuators powered by 4 PCUs which were L/R Inboard/Outboard.  I don't remember which PCUs controlled which actuators or the system failure logic.  The Airbus 320 family is Fly-By-Wire as is the Dassault Falcon 7X and as will be the Gulfstream G650.  If you take a closer look at Airbus models (320, 330, 340 and I don't see why not the 380) you'll see that when the airplanes are powered down at the gate that both ailerons will actually droop.  This is because not only is hydraulic power not in the system due to one of several hydraulic pumps but also the flight control computers aren't commanding an input because of the system logic and lack of hydraulic pressure.  When the hydraulic and electrical systems in the E170 for instance are powered up in the morning you have to wait several minutes before turning on the APU to run several PBIT's (Power-up Built In Tests) for both the Electrical and Hydraulic systems.  If you bring up the flight control synoptic page on either MFD you'll actually see the flight controls being "commanded" by the computer swinging all over the place but no actual movement occurs due to the fact it's the computers checking themselves out on command.  The electrical one took a good long time (2-3 minutes) and the hydraulic took 60 seconds each time you switched the pumps on prior to pushback.  I'm sure there are several other fly-by-wire platforms gracing the civil skies but I'm not educated on which ones they are exactly.  Suffice to say that FBW technology is no longer the sole domain of military fighter aircraft.

[humble]

Humble, I salute your last post, it makes a lot of sense. My comments were about your posts from the first couple of pages, you might want to re-read them. Your comments/conclusions/even source quoting were  "out there", especially about the ATR crash.

It's like blaming me for loosing a wheel that flew into your window while driving my Viper at 40MPH in reverse. Granteed I should not have been driving that fast in reverse, and the car was probably not design for it, but you better believe the Viper could handle it. It was a design flaw from Dodge, not the fact I did it. Same with the ATR, that's why the NTSB "cleared the creew", and NTSb tells it like it is, they don't care.

I feel better now 

No question that my original thoughts mirror a simple question, What could so surprise a qualified flight crew that they would lose the plane so quickly and completely. Hence the 1st thought (gear malfunction) in part speculating that deploying gear that had a hidden structural flaw at the higher then normal speed was possible. 2nd that a prop overspeed on final is a bad thing in the 400. As for the ATR crew, while the NTSB might have cleared them not many TP pilots did then or now...its constantly referenced as a pilot caused event and a big point specific to the much more limited margin for error flying a TP vs a regional jet. One other interesting point is that the Captains prior ride (Saab 340) has a history of stalling in ice prior to stick shaker....

From PPRuNe...
he investigation found that despite being certified to all required certification standards at the time, the Saab 340 aircraft can suffer from an aerodynamic stall whilst operating in icing conditions without the required warnings being provided to flight crew. This problem had been highlighted when the aircraft was introduced to operations in Canada and as a result a modified stall warning system was mandated for aircraft operated in Canada. This modification was not fitted to other Saab 340 aircraft worldwide.

So based on those incidents, we may suspect the captain of 3407 might well have been inclined to interpret the stick shake and push as signs of a tailplane stall instead of an impending wing stall. In the tailplane stall scenario pulling the yoke would be the correct response.... but this time it wasn't.
Makes you think how easily things can go wrong

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I think that those TP pilots might have forgotten that ice horns formed behind the boots, allowing the boots not to do their work, which was a design flaw independant to the pilot's action. But that's just me, I understand ur opinion now 

[humble]

Frenchy, as we've discussed I fully recognize that I'm not qualified to have an opinion here. Having a bit of 152/172 time I realize that certain complexities of even GA flight are not modeled in a sim like AH at all...however it does give a lot of generic insight (IMO) to both unusual attitude and recovery procedures for "missing parts". From what i'm reading the Dash 8 is not susceptible to a tail stall but the Saab 340 is, given the conditions it seems possible that the PF didn't advance the throttle when the plane leveled out and took the resulting stall as a tail stall vs a wing stall and over rode the pusher thinking the tail had stopped flying...

Again from PPRuNe....

Flying the Q400 myself, Otto's story makes very interesting reading. There but for the grace of God . . .

SOP at my operator is that once the 'one to go' call is made, PF's hand goes to the power levers and stays there until altitude capture - for two very good reasons. Firstly to stop him fiddling with the pitch wheel (a well known 'gotcha') and secondly as a reminder to do something with the power once we level off.

A two axis autopilot and manual throttles can make for an interesting combination.


Me again...

Obviously a sad sad situation regardless, I'm praying they find something else (mainly for mom of FO) but I honestly had no clue how complex and unforgiving some of these TP's are. I've never been SLF in the 400 but flew in the earlier Dash-8's a dozen times or more. Never had an issue but when I think of all the "boy/girl scout" age crews it makes me shudder...

[humble]

one more from PPRuNe

This is referencing technical issues with the ILS for the runway in question....


There is a potentially significant hazard concerning the ILS to runway 23 in BUF.

Information has been received indicating it is possible to obtain a significant nose pitch up, in some cases as much as 30 degrees, if the glide slope is allowed to capture before established on centerline. Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner.

This effect is the result of an earthen obstruction close enough to the ILS to affect the integrity of the glide slope signal. This has resulted in the issuance of an advisory given on ATIS which states that "the ILS Glide Slope for runway 23 is unusable beyond 5 degrees right of course."

When attempting to intercept the runway 23 ILS from right traffic, the ILS glide slope indication may read full deflection down. Just prior to intercept it may then move up in such as manner as to enable approach mode to capture in such a way as to result in a nose up pitch and loss of airspeed.

Until further notice, when executing the KBUF ILS/LOC Runway 23, DO NOT select Approach Mode until established on the localizer inbound.

This issue is being addressed on several levels in an attempt to address procedures, facilities, and communication regarding this matter.

[Golfer]

That's nothing new to Buffalo and several other airports in the country.  The caution and advisory is broadcast over the ATIS as it will be occasionally at other places.  Not getting too much into the why's this airplane was not approaching the localizer from the north in the first place.  They were given a 260 heading to intercept a 233º inbound course to the localizer.  A 27º intercept angle well within normal standards.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Flying into SLC anytime soon Golfer?

[Golfer]

I'm spending most of my time in Florida lately.  The golf game is coming around though 

[SFRT - Frenchy]

[Golfer]

Not far from it!  Here's one from the golf course this past weekend:



I wanted to pet it.

[Dawger]

How'd you manage to screw that up?

That's not being overly dramatic or anything...

I guess you had to be there.

 I did the same thing when I was flying Cessna 402's at max gross. My wife flew freight with me for a year. At the start she asked me how she should dress.

I told her to dress to crash.

A Beech 18 at max gross is not climbing after losing an engine. Just like a good single engine pilot I had a plan of where I would go if I lost a motor. Not overly dramatic, just good planning.

I was young and stupid at the time. If that weren't so I would never have flown the damn things in the first place.

I'm assuming you are a professional pilot, Golfer. How many pilots do you know that have experienced engine failure? How many pilots do you know that survived a crash? How many that didn't?

I suspect that your aviation background might be a bit different than mine.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Hey I'm flying 402s at max gross  What model were u flying? Taking off a 4000 ft runway in the Utah's summer at 4,500ft elevation just to transition to a 300 FPM all the way to 13K ... yay! ... or the winter months, all iced up stalling your way down below MEA. Hey that makes me think, I took some vids the last couple days, I'll youtube them. This week end I'm in the Metro, and it's blue sky ... figures

I lived in FL for 3 years, I ear you there. First time I saw a gator I wanted to pet it. They look so relax and sleepy, they are pretty deceiving.

[Casca]

I guess you had to be there.

 I did the same thing when I was flying Cessna 402's at max gross. My wife flew freight with me for a year. At the start she asked me how she should dress.

I told her to dress to crash.

A Beech 18 at max gross is not climbing after losing an engine. Just like a good single engine pilot I had a plan of where I would go if I lost a motor. Not overly dramatic, just good planning.

I was young and stupid at the time. If that weren't so I would never have flown the damn things in the first place.

I'm assuming you are a professional pilot, Golfer. How many pilots do you know that have experienced engine failure? How many pilots do you know that survived a crash? How many that didn't?

I suspect that your aviation background might be a bit different than mine.

I'm with you.  Always a good idea to plan for the worst case but especially when dealing with round engines.  I'd rather stab myself in the face than go back to work behind them.

[Masherbrum]

I've got to agree with Humble. Something was obviously VERY not right. There was nothing unimaginable here, no freak storm. These were relatively normal conditions. As was indicated, the flaps should NOT have been deployed. I understand the statement that the last mistake may not have been the root cause of the accident, but it's obviously a MAJOR speed-bump and the deciding factor in whether you end up on a runway or in the ground.

I'll admit, I've never flown through icing (We just don't have it here in the tropics) but there are other major concerns we have. We have an active volcano I have flown near which has it's own complications. We have nasty winds. Not ice, no, but the point is, we have dangers here, and we have procedures to remain safe while flying in that environment. And if a plane crashes as a result of failing to follow procedure, then it IS pilot error. Now, if all we are looking for is something to point the finger at, we have it. But if we want to avoid this happening again, then we do need to dig deeper and find other things that could have complicated the situation, things that CAN be rectified. But as far as the ultimate cause, it sounds like pilot error.

Wow, how old are you again?   

[Golfer]

I'm assuming you are a professional pilot, Golfer. How many pilots do you know that have experienced engine failure? How many pilots do you know that survived a crash? How many that didn't?

I suspect that your aviation background might be a bit different than mine.

The first bit was tongue in cheek about you planned to crash and did not.

A.) Numerous.  Myself included.
B.) Who uses the word "crash?"  How about accident or incident to qualify them?  In that case several.  Most of the situations resulted in minimal damage to the aircraft which I'm sure you'd agree is the desired outcome.
C.) Enough.  The number grows each year.

I guess I'm surprised at your sensationalization with average folks who might have an anxiety about flying.  Dress for the environment you'll be flying over but "dress to crash" is going out of your way to inject drama.

You're probably right about our backgrounds.  I have no desire to rival Ernie Gann in stories and I get my kicks behind M-14P's instead of 985s 1340s.