At least one Axis bomber?

[juzz]

I sure hope we can get at least one Axis late-war bomber sooner rather than later. Since the Allies have the B17G, soon to be B-26 and the Avro Lancaster was hinted to be after that.

Something fast, as Axis medium bombers had generally had light defensive guns, so speed would be vital to their "survival" in AH.

My suggestions are:

He177: It's operational record sucked (engine fires, structural failures), but otherwise it was an OK bomber.
Max speed: ~300mph,
Ceiling: 25-30k.
Guns: rear 20mm, 3x13mm in upper turrets, 2x7.9mm in ventral box, 20mm and 7.9 firing forward.
Bombload: 2000lb's (or up to 13000lb's for short range) of bombs, or 2 of: LT50 torpedoes, LMA III parachute sea mines, FX 1400, or Hs293 radio-guided missiles.

Ju88S - A streamlined, much faster version of the workhorse Ju88 bomber. Some types with GM-1 boosting too, to really P.O. them fighter pilots  
Max speed: ~380mph
Ceiling: 30k ?
Guns: a measly 13mm in rear of cockpit.
Bombload: 2000lb's of bombs, or up to 6000lb's depending on version.

Ju188: Even better. This one's (unarmed) S model could hit 426mph with GM-1. Oh yeah, now that's more like it!!  
Max speed: (E model) 310mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: one 20mm, and one 13mm in rear turrets, up to four other 7.9mm.
Bombload: 6000lb's of bombs, or 2 torpedoes.

Or a late-war Japanese bomber:

Mitsubishi Ki-67: Allied code "Peggy". Don't know much about it, except that it was supposedly able to do loops; it was very manoueverable.
Max Speed: 333mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: rear 20mm?, upper, front and beam 7.7mm guns.
Bombload: 1800lb's of bombs, or 1? torpedo.

Yokosuka P1Y1: Allied code "Frances". Fast and manoueverable, only a few made it into combat late in the Pacific theatre.
Max speed: 340mph
Ceiling: 30k
Guns: forward and rear upper 20mm cannon.
Bombload: 2000lb's of bombs.

So, which one would you prefer/think is most suitable in AH?

The Ju188S with GM-1 would be my number one pick of course! Take that Runstangs! Teeheehee  

[Fishu]

Humm, sounds cool bombers...
I hope HTC will give us LW fans something comparable with allie uber planes...

[v-twin]

I agree, we need an LW bomber.
I vote for the 88 models, He177 was practically non existent.
If we wish a bigger bomber, may I suggest to consider the italian Piaggio P108 too?
It was a big 4-engines bomber (kinda B17), carried 3500 kg bombs and had decent  defensive armament; unfortunatly it was not very fast (420km/h).
It saw service during 1943, even in very small numbers (very very small indeed, actually..ehem...24...), until the armistice, then they were captured by the Germans.
I will try to scan and post a picture here.


Veetwin

[Fishu]

Why should LW be restricted to numbers?
As well as we all know, germans had less numbers, with high technology of its time.

Russian front: wouldn't be wonder to see 10 T-34s against one Tiger

Western front: at least 5 shermans for every tiger!

If germans had something good, they sure did use it well. (isnt that enough reason to have even some more rare planes, at least have something good for LW?)

[juzz]

Virtually non-existant? There were some 565 He177A-5 built, and they served with several KG, on both eastern and western fronts. It sure would be nice to sink destroyers with those RC missiles...

As for Italian bombers, the only one I've ever heard was any good   was the S.M.79, one of the best torpedo bombers of it's time. It would be a great addition to the early war bomber set.  
Max speed: early model 267mph, late model 298mph with ethyl injection.
Ceiling: 21k
Guns: 7.7mm in forward fixed, upper and lower rear, and one beam gun. The guns are all retractable too   Later model 20mm forward, lower rear removed.

[Hristo]

A German bomber ? From 1944 ? Hmmmm.


How about.....the 262 ?

Sorry, couldn't resist  

[Westy]

The He-177 would get my vote if a poll was being taken.
On the other hand the Condor would be nice too.

-Westy

[juzz]

I think that unfortunately, the Fw200 Condor would suck in AH at the moment. Slow, low-flying, weak durability and a 4500lb bombload, most of which is only 50kg bombs. If we had merchant ship convoys sailing around in an ocean for the Condor to sink, then it would be great!  

The Me262? I don't like the idea of trying to divebomb in a jet with no speed brakes and an engine that can't be throttled back for fear of a flameout! The Arado Ar234, on the other hand...  

And yes, this is kinda supposed to be a poll... which of these Axis bombers do the people want? I would like to see at least one of them in AH soon.

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-11-2000).]

[Azrael]

For this late war plane set the He 177 would fit somehow (it's a fantasy arena anyway), but regarding the easy production of subtypes the Ju 88 or the Do 17 would be better suited.

A rather nice overview of many bomber types (axis and allied) is at  http://canopus.lpi.msk.su/~watson/wwiibombers.html

Az

------------------
Azrael
 Red Dragons

[dolomite]

I think the way to go in this planeset would be with some of the late war Japanese planes. They were fast, had good ceilings, were well protected, and could carry a useful load. They were also designed with day bombing in mind (as opposed to the British and German philosophy of night bombing).

Fom the above link:

Mitsubishi Ki.67 Hiryu
334mph
30,777 ft ceiling
1,792 bombload

Enough for ack!  

I will check some sources when I get home.  

[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 01-11-2000).]

[Fishu]

Isn't that B-29... eh.. B-17 already enough of fantasy?
Flies with full bombloads somewhere there where no buff has gone before...
Not to talk about those 20mm defensive guns which can rack up kills better than some of fighters  

[Hristo]

Who said anything about bombing, juzz ? I just said I want a 262 (as a bomber). The way I would use it is my choice, OTOH  

[sparviero]

May i suggest to develop an early war plane set?

In this perspective it seems to me unavoidable to model the He 111, just for historical reasons and, obviously, the SM79 Sparviero: however notice that the front gun was very often replaced by a mere piece of pipe to save weight the enemy don't knowing it was only a pipe and would not (hopefully!) try a head on  
all others MG were 12,7 Breda Safat (the only standardized part of Italian planes  
The at firs only one 7,7 mm Hotkiss MG for lateral defense (could be moved from one side to the other) was soon replaced by one 12,7 (what else? Right guessed!) Breda Safat for each side (on this point I ask help to  my squad mates, I could be wrong, 1 or 2?) then a back looking 12,7 mm Breda Safat on the Hump and (not everytime) a 12,7 mm backward looking 12,7 mm in the bomber position.
The Sparviero was one of the best scoring torpedo bomber in WWII, was able to take very severe punishment.
In fact almost all italian planes were good bullet sponges, otherwise you could not explain how the Regia Aeronautica could soustain 3 years of war with the known figures about it's real strenght. The pilots were every time the same, the planes were every time the same, with a very low turnover, the specialist making miracles to keep them flying. After the armistice on Sept. 8th 1943 the co-belligerant air force kept in line MC202 and Mc205 while the factories both for airframe and engine were left in German occupied territory (R.S.I. and Germany itself) so no spare parts a.s.o. The planes were kept flying cannibalizing all the wrecks brought back even from North Africa, this untile the end in April 1945! The inventive was never ending. As the front in the Balkans became to far for the range of the C205, in some exemplares the cowling mounted 12,7 mm guns were take out and replaced by a self made fuel tank: the urban legend about these tanks says that the first one was made out of the stainless steel cover of a bar organized in the café of the little town nearby the field: the owner of the café had obvioulsly not been asked  

I found this in the book "i soliti quattro gatti" (something like "The same (or the usual) 4 cats" which means "everytimes the same few peolple" or something like that) telling about the story of the regia Aeronautica in WWII out of pilot's diaries and tales with focus on the 4° Stormo Caccia.
Honestly I don't really know if this is really true (maybe more historically prepared squad mates can help also on this point) but it surely gives the sense on how and with which spirit they had to fight...

So far

Ciao

Luigi "falco" Pacetti
4° Stormo Caccia

[humble]

I'm certainly out of my league here with regard to bomber knowledge...however i do believe that germany was bombing England right up till the end of the war..primarily with araddo's ???

This was the 1st operational turbojet bomber in the world and was operational in late 44 (november I think).  Would give them ponys something to chase  

[juzz]

The Runstangs can chase all they want, but they will never catch an Ar234, going at 460mph  

Hristo; you can have a Me262, but you can only engage enemy fighters AFTER you bomb your mission target. Failure to destroy the target will not be tolerated. Once it's destroyed, then you can shoot whatever you want to, with your two MK108 cannon  

Fishu; if HTC fix the B-17's engines, they wont be flying so high anymore. Currently it can run indefinitely at full power of 2500rpm/46 inches, which the real B-17 could only sustain for 5 minutes. This setting has a critical altitude for the turbo of 27k. You have to throttle back 1.5 inches per 1000ft over critical alt, which is why a real B-17 can only reach 35k, but AH's can go much higher. The problem is that if you run the maximum continous power setting of 2300rpm/41 inches, it climbs really... really..... slowly......