Russian opinion of Bf 109 vs Fw 190

[Anaxogoras]

From wikipedia:

The Fw 190 gruppen adhered to well-proven hit-and-run tactics, avoiding whenever possible any turning engagements or being caught in a position of inferior numerical advantage. These tactics were used by Bf 109 pilots as well, albeit "the lean" (the Soviet nickname for the Bf 109 series) was widely considered by Soviet airmen as a more agile and potent adversary than the Fw 190, which was viewed as "heavy and slow..." especially when climbing

Is this accurate?  Did Russian pilots really consider the Bf 109 the more potent adversary?  One of the citations for the quote is an interesting translation that is sort of a guide for how to fight the 190 in the La-5:  http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/russian-combat-fw190.html.  The amount of head-on attack references is quite funny; apparently, the head-on was standard for the Fw 190. The other citation is a broken link.

[MjTalon]

   Oh my. Think you should have kept that 190 part out of it G, now we won't hear the end of it! 

[Anaxogoras]

 

[MiloMorai]

One has to remember that many of the 190s in Russian were ground attack a/c. These pilots were not trained in a2a combat though some did run up impressive scores.

[Anaxogoras]

One has to remember that many of the 190s in Russian were ground attack a/c. These pilots were not trained in a2a combat though some did run up impressive scores.

I don't think that accounts for it.  Remember, even the 109 was used as a ground attack plane.

I'm a little surprised at the lack of interest/knowledge about this topic.  Maybe HTC is correct to ignore the Eastern front.

[Motherland]

How does this contradict with the game at all?

[Anaxogoras]

How does this contradict with the game at all?

Did I say it did, bubi?

What it contradicts is the opinion of the Western air forces.

[Motherland]

  Maybe HTC is correct to ignore the Eastern front.

I took this to mean that you thought their opinion was contradicted.

[Anaxogoras]

I took this to mean that you thought their opinion was contradicted.

No, I meant that HTC is possibly right to ignore the Eastern front because of the near total lack of interest in the Russian opinion of the Bf 109 and Fw 190.

[Noir]

In a knife fight a 109G6 is certainly more potent than a heavy 190. 109's were used as top cover for attacker 190's as it has been said.

I don't know if it was the case really but the Russians would be right to consider the 109 as a better dogfighter.

What it contradicts is the opinion of the Western air forces.

You've got to keep in mind the evolution of the 190 over the years, the good reports on the 190 date from the battles over Britain and France were the 190 was used a lot as an air superiority fighter in its light version (no extra guns or armor and no ord) and at medium to high altitude, with skilled fighter pilots at the commands, and often favourable situation. What the russians met at low alt over russia was the basicly the same plane with same engine but full of armor guns and bombs in a position that doesn't fit the 190 IMO, not to mention the pilot skill in air combat. Someone said bomb truck ?

[RedTeck]

Practice has shown that in frontal attacks both planes are so damaged that, in the majority of cases, they are compelled to drop out of the battle.

The reason I don't 99% of the time.

[Charge]

"In a knife fight a 109G6 is certainly more potent than a heavy 190."

In this GAME it is. IRL it was a bit different. Not that I have any other reference to that than the duel (a draw BTW) between J. Meimberg/E. Mayer, and that was G2 vs. A6, AFAIK.

Considering the attrition rate on Eastern front and the new pilots ability to better utilize the better continuous climb rate of 109 I do not find the Russian opinion too surprising of 109 being the better plane. However in a 190 you are more safe in low level than in a 109 due to damage survivability so I assume that many times the 190 operated nearer the deck where as 109s did not fly with ordnance after the 190 became available, so it is possible that statistically the 190s more rarely had neither the altitude advantage nor the benefit of sneak attack partly being responsible in forming such opinion.

I also think that if people insist believing the allied tests of 190's abilities in a dogfight a veteran German pilot probably could show those test pilots a trick or two to realize what where the 190s actual strengths in a knife fight. However as that never happened and the only evidence of 190s fighter abilities we have remaining is pretty much only the records like this: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spit.html (<- You need to dig up some to see who flew 190s, but Priller did.)

-C+

[Anaxogoras]

109s did not fly with ordnance after the 190 became available

I don't believe this to be true.  Messerschmidt Bf 109 F, G & K Series by Prien and Rodeike has numerous pictures of 109G's on the Eastern front outfitted for ground attack, and after the introduction time of the FW 190 to that theater.

[Urchin]

Really the only people who thought the 190s were "good" were the British with old Spitfires or Hurricanes.  

Besides which, the 190 (as awful as they all are in this game) are still better than the 109 against the "old" Spits (1,5,9) in squadron sized numbers.  The firepower alone makes them more dangerous.

Against Spit 8,16,14 I think squads of 109s and 190s would get shredded about equally.

[Treize69]

I think the opinion of the Russian pilots would depend a lot on the aircraft and front they flew as well. If they were flying in the south where German units like JG 52 and JG 3 were flying the 109 (as well as the Rumanians and Hungarians) and most 190s were ground attack and close support types, they would probably see the 109 as the better fighter. In the north, where JG 54 was tearing holes in the VVS with the 190, maybe not so much. Also, as they got closer to Germany and the later-model 190s kept close for Home Defense got into the fight, also might make a difference.

As far as the matchups go, if the VVS pilot was in a P-40, P-39, LaGG or something else of the "lower rung", the agility and climb rate of the 109 would seem a serious overmatch (at least to an average or below-average pilot). In a late Yak or La, not so much.